ACS: Impeachment | 3
Show Notes:
In 1998, the world was shaken when it learned that then-President Bill Clinton had an affair with 24-year-old intern Monica Lewinsky. 23 years later this scandal would be the topic of season three of American Crime Story. In this episode host, Julia Washington discusses The Clinton Scandal and Impeachment with guest Natalie Katona.
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References
Celebrity Book Club - Rob Lowe / Melissa Gilbert
You’re Wrong About
Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we analyze pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both Natalie Catona is back. And today we are talking about Monica Lewinsky and the American crime story season about the Clinton scandal.
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Julia: In 1998, the world was shaken when it learned that then president bill Clinton had an affair with 24 year old intern, Monica Lewinsky, 23 years later, this scandal would be the topic of season three of American crime story. But before we dive. Let's get reacquainted with my guest. Natalie is the host of the podcast to all the men I've tolerated before each week.
Julia: She and her guests do a deep dive on a particular instance. They were made to tolerate men, the patriarchy misogyny. I'm gonna add just existing as
Natalie: females .
Julia: And while they're done tolerating and ready to start thriving, she was here in season three to discuss her breakup with factualization. She is my creative partner and co-creator, and co-producer of our show still comfy, which is a live show where we revisit pop culture properties that we once loved to see if we still love them, or if they make us feel comfortable.
Julia: Welcome to the show, Natalie,
Natalie: thank you for having me back. There's no shortage of me in pop culture. Makes me jealous world.
Julia: I love it. I'm here for it. Listen, I was.
Natalie: Some sort of disaster going on right outside my home. There are so many sirens.
Julia: oh my gosh. That's terrifying. See, and I live near downtown slash I think it's in downtown, but some people have decided that it's not in downtown.
Julia: I happen to disagree. Um, so we hear shit all the time because we're right there. Like there's a fight at the bar. There's a car accident. There's somebody who decided to complain about the unhoused person sleeping on a bench.
Natalie: Yeah. You gotta know that shit. Mm-hmm why have a police radio when you can just live inside of it?
Natalie: Exactly.
Julia: Oh my gosh. Did I ever tell you about the time that it, like the SWAT team literally rushed the house across the street? I think so. Yeah. And like the next door app was blowing up. People were like, they're looking for somebody with a gun. There was shooting, da, da, da, all this stuff. They blew out.
Julia: They shot out my friend's porch light because like they didn't ask her to turn it off. They just shot it out with a bean bag, um, to. BU rush this house. So I told the kid, I was like, because our, our rooms are up against the alley mm-hmm . So I was like, you have to sleep in an interior room tonight until they tell us this is done.
Julia: Yeah. Cause my fear was like, cuz you know that law and order episode where that old lady got shot in her sleep because some of a stray bullet cuz their window was open. Like that's what I was thinking. Yeah. No
Natalie: it's real. Yeah. Um, I once slept through someone, shooting someone else in my apartment complex and then my neighbor had to tell me about it after my nap.
Natalie: So teaching's hard. You sleep hard when you're a teacher yeah. Well
Julia: you're molding the youth of America that everyone is terrified of. So,
Natalie: so okay. Before
Julia: we get into, uh, the Clinton scandal, American crime story or whatever order they put it in. Um, do you remember what you thought of like wealthy or rich women on TV or in media or in films when you were a kid?
Julia: Like, do you have an impression that you can. Recall
Natalie: the only, so the only time a wealthy woman, like left an impression on me as a child was when she was like over the top snooty mm-hmm , I'm thinking in my head of a girlfriend, she was African American. She used to wear like really white tailored suits. I don't even know what show I'm thinking of.
Natalie: And she'd have like a Southern Gente accent even though no one else did. Are you talking about,
Julia: um, who shot Jr? What show was that? Dallas. Are you talking about
Natalie: Dallas? No, I'm not talking. She's like, it's a very French prince looking woman, but it's not the show fresh prince, but maybe she's not African American.
Natalie: It wasn't girlfriend. Now, it might have been step by step. It might have been step by step and it might have been the idiot's girlfriend. Like not even like the brother, the idiot's friend, like she would just talk and she'd be like now, darling. Yeah. Yeah. And then he'd have to like step two to something.
Natalie: So the, honestly the only trip that ever got me with a woman was like, oh, if you're rich, you get to be snooty. And then you get to tell your TV boyfriend, whatever he should be doing. I believe it was also a trope that happened on boy mate's world. Like mm-hmm mm-hmm
Julia: Uhhuh. Yeah. Cuz the trope of the snotty wealthy woman, I think that's a real thing.
Julia: And I think that's a large part. So what inspired this season was I ran into several women who, when we were reading, um, we Shelby be millionaires mm-hmm all of their thought about wealthy women was like, oh that's not good. We don't wanna be that because that's a negative like wealthy women are like, like terrible people.
Natalie: they're not great people. Um, and they ruin their boyfriend's lives and then their boyfriend's mothers hate them.
Julia: that's a trope. The boyfriend's mom's hating the girlfriend. Like, we need that to end. I can't with that. I'm like, please. Ugh. Makes me so upset. Right.
Natalie: I don't know.
Julia: Okay. So my next question, do you remember the Clinton scandal in real time?
Natalie: I was nine mm-hmm . Um, it was one of those things where you, I think you pretend that you have childhood memories of the Clinton scandal, because you do remember like adults just making a lot of comments and jokes that no one would explain to you. Yeah. Yeah. And you'd be like, what's going on with our country, mommy.
Natalie: And they'd be like, don't worry about it.
Julia: you're not allowed to be an intern ever in DC.
Natalie: Right? Yeah. I do remember that everyone. I know. Um, currently, and probably in the past blamed Monica.
Julia: Oh, AB that's AB I do. I remember that too. Everything was Monica's fault. Mm-hmm she was a hussy. She was a woozy. How dare she do this to the president?
Julia: Right. And at the time I remember thinking, I don't understand she's a kid, right. Because in my mind, yeah. You know, even though 20 four's grown it, she looked so young to me. Um, and, and I just, I didn't. And remember I grew up in a conservative home mm-hmm so anything to take down a democratic president, right?
Natalie: Oh yeah. Well, and I think this is also like my brush with like people in power can and will do bad things. Mm-hmm like, because I'm like what my president who likes to play the saxophone on the television, he did a, what now? Why are they trying to put him in jail?
Julia: yeah. And us, for us, it was like, well, he's the first, you know, black people's president.
Julia: Yeah. Why are you taking down the first black people's president? Um, because I remember when Obama was running somebody in my, somebody in, I knew in the community was like, um, we finally actually got a real black president. Yeah. Like, sorry, Clinton. And I was like, what did they say? Like I'm, you know, cuz then you have to go back to your memories and da, da, da, um, But yeah, like you, it was like, it was all Monica's fault.
Julia: She's it was all
Natalie: Monica's fault. Um, and in a very childlike way, I just knew that, like, I only refer to president Clinton as bill, as if we are per like close personal friends, because bill has that kind of like LAE fair charm that you're like, I don't even think he gives a shit that he's the president and you probably could call him bill.
Natalie: Yeah, and I blame John Elaney and I blame him in that bit about his mom, almost sleeping with bill Clinton. I don't. And he ever heard that one. Yeah. And he ends that joke with, because bill never forgets a bitch. And like now I only refer to Clinton as
Julia: bill. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Um, do you think the treatment of her influence like impacted you as a young girl?
Julia: Well, like had those comments and stuff and it being her fault and all that stuff. I don't know if
Natalie: it had an like, direct, like effect on how I behaved or whatever, but it did reinforce in the nineties, this very Puritan, like purity culture mindset. Mm-hmm that we have about women mm-hmm and it's. Oh, keep your boys at home.
Natalie: Like she's out on the street or something. So did it affect me directly to where I was like, oh, you should never be alone in an office with a man. He will expose himself to you. Probably not probably went right over my head, but did it force me to like grow up in the nineties where people had something to point at mm-hmm where they're like, see women are conniving and they're slutty and they're bad.
Natalie: yeah.
Julia: Yeah. I mean, similarly, cause I'm a little bit older. So I heard a lot of like, um, actually, yeah, I heard a lot of the same messages. Like women can't be trusted and it was very clear to us or to me anyway that like, if you were gonna go to bat with anybody, you better have receipts. Mm-hmm you better make sure your nose is clean because they will come for you in every dirty detail.
Julia: So you are not allowed to mess up in any way,
Natalie: shape or form. Right. You are not allowed to have sex mistakes in this country. Yeah. Apparently. Cause like you're just not, how often are we just making fun of someone for having sex with the wrong person?
Julia: Yeah. So when I had the intimacy coordinator, no, she wasn't an intimacy coordinator.
Julia: She was an intimacy. Expert Leah carry on. Yep. For the sort about normal people. She commented in that show in that episode about how, like you, there's this very clear line where things are like, now you're in a zone, I'm doing a terrible job at recapping how she said it. Yeah. But the gist is this, you basically start to, once you hit that point of intimacy, physical intimacy, you hit a point where it's like, you're not really actually in a position to make a cognitive cohesive, clear decision that's.
Julia: So her recommendation was like, you agree upon what you're willing to do before you hit that point. Yeah. Because once you're past that point, you'll you are gonna like. Not anything goes, but essentially that's how I took it was like anything goes. Yeah. And I was like, oh, is that why all of us have regrets the next day?
Julia: Oh yeah. Cause we don't, we don't have those conversations. Listen. And then we wake up the next day and think you were cuter
last
Natalie: night, like Monica, I too have put something mediocre in my mouth just because it was presented to me. It happens. I couldn't be Paula Jones, at least Paula Jones said that she wasn't that type of girl.
Natalie: I guess I just decided a long time ago. I can be that type of girl
Julia: and Monica can do it. So can I,
Natalie: but yeah, like Monica I've been somewhere alone with someone mediocre and put something very mediocre in my mouth because it felt like the only option
Julia: sometimes it is sometimes it is because of the way they present themselves.
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Julia: There's a hyphen in between. Become a member, become hyphen, a hyphen member. See you there. So let's get into the actual American crime story scandal, TV show itself, friends. This is. 10 part episode mm-hmm series mini series. It is literally an hour and a half each episode. So you're watching a mini movie every single time.
Julia: It opens with, um, Linda trip meeting Paula in the little lunch area where they meet at the capital, which I've been before. Um, and, and then the feds kind of swarm Monica and we're like, you have to talk to us, we have things to ask you about the president. Um, and then from there we flash back and sort of get the beginning of the story and work our way forward to yeah, the impeachment.
Julia: Um, so what did you think about this series overall? I was
Natalie: so excited for this series. The moment Hulu released a commercial because to me it had the perfect cast. Like if I was going to do this reenactment in my own head. For my own honestly, historical lesson, as we know, I don't actually know facts they ha FX has to present them to me.
Natalie: Yeah. In a dramatic fashion with Clive Owen. And then I go, I didn't even know who Paula Jones was. I was like, why is Ashley and afer in such a big role in this show? I didn't know that there was a whole other lady let alone, like Monica was one of nine .
Julia: Yes. Oh my God. I remember the whole Paula Jones thing happening.
Julia: And I, again, I didn't understand why Paula Jones was the bad guy in this scenario. Yeah.
Natalie: literally not a name that had ever crossed my mind ex until I listened to the Iran about episode, about Monica Lewinsky. And I was like, why are they talking about a lady named Paula? And then I watched this show and I was like, and it's all, it's all coming back to me now except where I never knew her.
Natalie: yeah, like, yeah, she was not slut shamed in my home for whatever reason. I,
Julia: well, maybe your parents didn't know either. I don't know. Our family was very, I'm not saying yours wasn't but our family was very like, we're paying attention to all the politics.
Natalie: No, and I like, and it's really hard to pin down when my family is pro Democrat.
Natalie: And when my family is pro Republican, I feel like that ebbed and flow. in my childhood. Mm. And then eventually my parents stopped discussing who they were voting for. Yeah. And they just voted in secret.
Julia: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I would never tell who I voted for. Yeah. Especially if they rightly fucked up yeah.
Julia: I don't wanna admit to getting behind that H that cart
Natalie: I like, listen, can we go back to bill for a second? Whether or not he's Clive Owens li okay.
Julia: Can I just tell you when I was watching the first six episodes, I was texting my friend cuz she and I are different on different political spectrums mm-hmm but we like still have really great conversations.
Julia: And I kept texting her was like, I don't understand why anybody thought this man was attractive. He skis me the fuck. even as even Clive Owen as bill Clinton is giving me the Hebe Gies I can't hang. I didn't even think I'd be able to finish it because it was making, he was making me so uncomfortable.
Natalie: I need everyone to know, because I don't know if I've gone on record saying this, but I've said it enough in public.
Natalie: Someone probably made a talk out of it. I am one of the women who cannot be left alone in a room with bill. I say it out loud all the time. Bill has that exact level of gen teal charm. It's not to like the gambit level. Mm-hmm like, because we all understand that, but it's just right at that threshold where he'd like, just walk up and he'd.
Natalie: Hey, Natalie, you wanna hear me play my saxophone and then maybe put your mouth and I'd be like, probably, I don't know.
Julia: I can't I'm so I just, what is the appeal? He's so
Natalie: sweet. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I think like, I think also it has to do with the way that, like, everyone was very comical in the nineties about how he was like skeezy, but also charming and like could just like trick women in the white house into a quick gro and,
Julia: and then gas lighting.
Julia: Because when the, when it comes out that, you know, he's essentially fucked because they have all this documentation from Paula, um, Linda trip and like, you know, it turns out every woman lied on their affidavit cuz they're Clinton, the Clintons are bullies. Yeah. Um, you know, then he's going around rewriting history with everybody, his secretary, you, I was never left alone with
Natalie: Monica was that, I don't know why you talking about, you know, and I'm
Julia: over here.
Julia: Like, um, you are a creep. Yes. A creep because that is some shady motherfucking shit to go. You have so much power. You are the most powerful person in our country and you were bullying everybody into. Convincing them, gaslighting them, whatever to say that you are never left alone with Monica. This
Natalie: is why I've had to stop dating men, because I think I've been conditioned to want the attentions of the bill Clintons of the world.
Julia: seriously.
Natalie: Yes. I think, listen, I don't know when it happened, but men like bill Clinton when it's just like, so seamlessly easy. Like with bill, like with men, like bill Clinton, it's literally like, can you hand me that pen over there? Namely. And you're like, sure. And then you hand him the pen and he's like, so I was thinking that you were looking like real good in that skirt.
Natalie: And like I thought we were just here to talk about pens. Now I'm getting now I'm getting complimented , you know,
Julia: you wouldn't get creeped out by the way he would compliment you. Cause it's just so
Natalie: creepy. I don't know. I'm just letting you know that I have said often that this is why I can't tape men anymore because I'm to the point where I have gone without genuine praise and compliments for so long,
Julia: you don't
Natalie: care who it comes from.
Natalie: That as soon as a smooth talking man, I think it's the accent.
Julia: yeah, we've had that conversation. I also really do. I think
Natalie: it's enjoy
Julia: brother. Yeah. Bill Clinton is a musician. does a saxophone count
Natalie: though. He played it on the tonight show.
Julia: Yeah, but I just felt like you of all the, the instruments you could choose to play to try and woo chicks, you chose the saxophone
Natalie: until.
Natalie: until Barack Obama. He was our pop star president. Like he was our rockstar president. Yeah.
Julia: That's fair. I do remember him being on Jay Leno. I remember watching that cause my par my dad loved Jay Leno. Yeah.
Natalie: And he would be funny like when's the last time besides Obama. We've had a funny president. That's
Julia: true.
Julia: That's fair. Okay. That's okay. That's fair. But I also think that like, I don't know, maybe because I've been essentially sexually harassed since I was eight years old. I am like deeply aware because I mean, I I've said this before. I was a very pretty little girl. I was a very pretty teenager. I was actually, I convinced myself.
Julia: I was still the most beautiful up until up until I gained grad school weight. And now I feel like the world hates me cuz they're fat phobic. Um, so there's like this there's like.
Julia: This isn't gonna sound really arrogant and shitty, but I'm gonna do it anyway. So there's like this ability that I feel like I have to be like, I know when you're actually a Perver. I mean, we all know when you're actually a pervert, right? Like we all have that radar, but there's something about like, I have this honed ability to be able to catch it sooner than most of my friends.
Julia: Yeah. Because I've been in those scenarios where they're just like, oh, and I'm just like, well, that's you realize that that's an indicative behavior of your type of human and I'm not Lud by this. That's probably why a certain person makes me feel ick at
Natalie: work. And all I wanted out of the American crime story, because I am obsessed with this story.
Natalie: Mm-hmm well obsessed with, I mean, it falls right into that timeline of when we were just like bashing women left and right in the nineties, like Tanya Harding. Yeah. Fell into this decade. Yeah. Uh, the one lady who like bit off her husband's penis and had to go to cohort about it. Like literally, like there was a flu.
Natalie: Yeah. And all I wanted and I was like, please, please allow Monica Lewinsky to look like she is actually 22 years old in this show and to behave as a 22 year old so that people remember that she was a child mm-hmm being groomed by the president.
Julia: Yes. So that leads us into another great question. How did this series change your perspective or your view on the
Natalie: scandal on the scandal?
Natalie: Well, number one, this series, uh, paired with the Iran about episode, which I truly believe everyone should listen to. It's a great show
Julia: made
Natalie: me. Even more aware of how Anne Coulter tries to run the country from behind the scenes. Mm-hmm like she doesn't hold an office. but she's always
Julia: conspiring. She, she came to town a couple years ago and people like the progressives in our community.
Julia: Yeah. Lost their shit. They stood outside the auditorium protesting like
Natalie: honestly, like how wild was it to watch this show and like recognize people's names. Mm-hmm like they drop Bernie Sanders names. Mm-hmm at some point Brett Kavanaugh.
Julia: Yeah. Being an ultimate Dick during the whole thing. And you're like, motherfucker, you are being self-righteous.
Julia: We all know where you are gonna end
Natalie: up my Lord. So sorry.
Julia: it. I just got, so I told you, I warned you. This show made
Natalie: me hot. It gave me a conspiracy theory to hold on. and then I was like, well, maybe I should have listened to my mother as she rambled on to me, as soon as she felt like I was old enough that Monica was set up, that the president was set up, that they were all set up by extremist.
Natalie: And I was like, you know, maybe she had something. Yeah. And, and then it also colored a, because like you I'm a nine year old in 22 to 24, looks like a full ass grownup to me. And 22 to 24 is also kind of the age of all of the grownups on TV. I'm watching mm-hmm . So to me, it's like, well, Monica was making choices, but then you like watch the show and you listen to a podcast and you're like, Monica really was convinced whether or not it was through the 22 year old delusion that you convinced yourself of anything.
Natalie: Or the president himself and hi, double teaming her with his secretary that she was in a dating serious committed relationship with our president. Mm-hmm
Julia: yep. Mm-hmm and what I thought the show did a really good job with beanie Feldstein in that role. She does present very young. Yeah. Very, very young.
Julia: Like I kept forgetting cuz there were a couple times where I, she was like, oh my God, honey, how innocent are you?
Natalie: Because think about how Anne Bolin is always portrayed in media. Mm-hmm she's always real slinked up. she's always talking like this. Hey keen Henry ha. Um, she's always got like some diabolical gleam in the back of her eye and she's always smirking cuz she's Naly dormer Naly Portman.
Natalie: Take your pick on how we portray. and mm-hmm and they could have gone that route with Monica, because that was the picture we were all painted in the nineties. And so they could have gone with a very like toyed up Monica Lewinsky, shoving her tits in the presence face, trying to take down a nation. Yeah.
Natalie: But instead, like, even when she goes unhinged, I was like, that is a very 22 year old way to just yell at your boyfriend. I've been in that fight. where you're like, you're trying to break up with me. You're trying to tell me we're not going to dinner tonight. Cuz you're breaking up with me and you get wild eyed yep.
Natalie: It's like I've been in that fight. like, you know,
Julia: Monica Lewinsky was a consultant on the show.
Natalie: Um, was she yeah. Good for her. I hear that. She's. done a lot of work in the like shame mindset. Mm-hmm in telling people that they too can get over the fact that they have been whether privately or publicly shamed mm-hmm so good for her, for working on this
show.
Julia: Yeah. And I think that's a huge part of why we get so much vulnerability out of beanie mm-hmm and, um, that so much it's her,
Natalie: it's her show. You barely see bill . Yeah.
Julia: There's that one episode, I think it's episode nine where they actually like get into depth about the Clintons and how it affects Hillary.
Julia: Yeah. Um, and that to me was like, oh, first of all, my DVR fucked up and it went straight from episode eight to 10, and then something happened where I was like, why am I on episode nine? I was just on episode eight. So when I watched episode. Nine, I, I not episode 10 or something. I was like, oh, they actually didn't like, you could have totally skipped nine.
Julia: And it doesn't add context to the Lewinski side of the story, but it adds context to Hillarys side. Right? Because here she is, she is like, I defended you. I stood up for you. I fucking stood by you by you. And this is how you do me now. The country hates me. Yeah. The whole. And they still do look at what happened in
Natalie: 2016.
Natalie: the Hillary backlash for again, just putting a mediocre man in your mouth. Like, oh wait, I'm sorry. They make the point in the show and on Iran about that, Hillary didn't do that for bill .
Julia: Hopefully he, is that why he went looking for it somewhere else? Right? It's like, cause that's another thing documents.
Julia: Yeah. Cause that's another thing we're told is that if you don't do those things for your husband, mm-hmm, , they're gonna go find someone who will. Right.
Natalie: And it's in, I think Monica Lewinsky's like 80 page novel of a disposition like that. She says that the first time that they engaged in oral sex, he didn't finish because for whatever reason, that was the line, he decided wasn't cheating.
Natalie: um, oh my God. But when she was like, you know, done and he went that's enough now, um, he told her, he goes, thanks for doing that. It hasn't happened to me for a very long time.
Julia: oh my God.
Natalie: I just don't understand. But it, it literally like, because I knew Monica Lewinsky. Gave our president a blow job. Mm-hmm and the world lost its mind, which like, even as an adult, trying to grapple with that, when you're like, did the country need to lose its mind because the president got a blow job, but then it's everything surrounding that scandal.
Natalie: Mm-hmm because he doesn't cuz what is it? It's the. It's the whole,
Julia: um, the shot that kind of kicks it off is that he denies it. And then now there's all this incriminating evidence. Yes. Right? Yes. Like the tapes, first of all, now I wanna look up how cuz so California's a two party consent state and I know this mm-hmm because my dad's comp and so like, I can't record you without your permission.
Julia: Right. But I'm curious about the rules in laws in DC because Linda trip and her fucking tape recorders. And how like, can we talk about her for a minute? Because like she walks into this whole scenario with this, she's almost like righteously indignant in the sense of like, this is for America, America, I'm saving America
Natalie: I'm and
Julia: like saving America and.
Julia: The whole, and Monica's just happy to have a friend mm-hmm she's just happy. Someone's talking to her. Mm-hmm she doesn't understand why she got transferred to, you know, wherever it was. She is.
Natalie: the moment that Sarah Paulson trip started speaking because I watched the first episode with a friend and then I finished it at home.
Natalie: I was like at a sleepover. I turned to my friend and I looked at him and I went, do you think Sarah Polson is just pissed because she's the only person not getting groped at the white house. Like it very much had that vibe. Like it very, like, they kind of set it up to where she trip was surrounded by women mm-hmm who were getting felt up by the president.
Natalie: And then she just like grappled with that. And she already didn't like the president. And then I was like, I literally just feel like she feels rejected.
Natalie: I, the president has never come to see her and now she's made it her like Bible thumping mission to also try to bring him down, even though her and Ann Colter have never had a conversation. Right.
Julia: Right. Well, and then two later she kind of gets humanized in the sense of like, because everyone, you know, the country turns on her, how could you, how dare you, how could you do that to your friend?
Julia: Mm-hmm one she's, you know, playing the game of the patriarchy to survive. Cuz that's what we're forced to believe. Right. We have to do. And then two, you know, she has that speech about how like, no one's ever thought she was attractive. And then to be like that scene where that's, when I knew the SNL. Yeah.
Julia: And her daughter's like, mom, we probably shouldn't watch this. She's like, it's fine. It's fine. You cute. And then John Goodman is playing her on SNL and you could just see it in her face. Yeah. Like all the childhood trauma of being bullied, all of the things that people have ever said to her, all the pranks just came back because now the country, rather, just rather than a select few of people, mm-hmm, hate her and think she's ugly.
Julia: Well, and the
Natalie: thing of it is there were moments where you also knew that she was doing it for the clout. Like it used to be, I just want to be back in the, uh, white house where the M and M are. Yeah. Like, but then it very much also became like, you know, with America's hero, like I'm going to be the one who unleashes this and then everyone will know mm-hmm and then everyone will be in service and then thinks to me.
Natalie: eventually you're like, oh no, but she's now into it. Like, it's like how the bachelor contestants get like wrapped up in the fame. Like you are into this. Yeah. You are into the idea. Book deals, SNL appearances, all of it until it's John Goodman playing. Yeah.
Julia: yeah. And when she told the, the agent, well, I was never in this for the book.
Julia: Uh ma'am. I'm pretty sure that she told you, you, you need evidence in order to write this book. Mm-hmm and that's what prompted you to make
those
Natalie: tapes? Yeah, Uhhuh . She was so mad to be at the Pentagon. I mean she had,
Julia: and I get to the Pentagon. I would be too yeah. I
Natalie: mean that she had to ruin a 22 year old's life over it.
Natalie: Yeah,
Julia: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't go that far personally, cuz I'm not here to ruin people's lives. I'm just here to get a paycheck. Yeah. Do we need to talk about Hillary for a
Natalie: minute? Yeah, because I love ed Falco. mm-hmm and I loved nurse Jackie and I felt like ed Falco was a great choice because she favors Hillary.
Natalie: Like it's a good like, like Clive Owen. It's a good, like, I can make that a carbon copy in my head. Yeah.
Julia: Um, I mean down to the freaking headbands in her hair, it took me a second to be like mm-hmm okay. Mm.
Natalie: um, I love E Falco. I feel like because doesn't Hillary show up in like two episodes. I feel like to have such a powerhouse, like Edie, Falco playing Hillary Clinton.
Natalie: They did not have her around a lot. Right. But they also didn't have bill around a lot. So, and I feel like they played her, especially in that bathroom scene where she's washing her hands mm-hmm and Linda trip like gets off on the fact that she now gets to call Hillary like cold and snooty and like, oh, the president's wife was in our bathroom, the common nurse.
Natalie: Like, I feel like even in that, the way that EDI carries herself in the show where it's like, you know, that she has like the only thing that's holding her shoulders up at that very severe. Angle is because she is continuously watched and she's smart enough to know all of it. Mm-hmm and all that said about her.
Natalie: And she also knows that she has ambitions in life and that anything that she's going to do now is going to affect her ambitions because everyone's eyes are on her.
Julia: Yeah. I thought the show did a really good job paralleling. Was it her Vogue cover mm-hmm or vanity fair Vogue or vanity fair? I get with Paula Jones's penthouse cover.
Julia: Yes, because here you have two women. Paula Jones is hurting for money. Mm-hmm people like her case is completely like she's been dropped, right? Like she's got a, she had a nose dropped that scene where she's so upset that she didn't think that she was ugly or that her nose was a problem until people started commenting, broke my heart.
Julia: Yeah. For her. But that's not the point. The point is, is that parallel they did between the two photo shoots was so powerful. Mm-hmm because it shows like, you know, Paula Jones didn't, it's almost like these are the two options that women have. Yeah. In situations like these, like Hillary. Sure. You're gonna cater.
Julia: She's coming out unscathed, she's running for the New York Senate. She's gonna probably be okay because she has wealth and power. Yeah. Paula just needs a dime to get by. And everyone's turned on her, especially now that they found out she's gonna post for penthouse and the way that they're treated during each photo shoot mm-hmm, like, penthouse is like, well, you signed up for this and you, you agreed to these things and she's like tasteful, right?
Julia: Like you can sense her hesitation. Mm-hmm , we're a Hillary, like you're saying like everyone's watching her. She has to be poised. She has to be, um, what's the word I'm looking for words, her heart dignified, dignified. That's the word. So I thought that that scene being paralleled with each other was just so beautifully done and it, it did kind of break my heart a little bit.
Natalie: I know. Poor Paula. Yeah. Oh, I did not even know existed. Her husband also. But in the nineties, you weren't told to leave your mediocre husband. That's
Julia: true. I do love though that when Kobe smolders and Taran what's his face do RNs shows together, even though they didn't have scenes together. Yeah. I still love that.
Julia: They can say they were both in that, cuz they're just adorable together. Are they still together? Are they still? I thought
Natalie: they were are, I don't know shit. Now I have to know. I don't follow her because I hated how I met your mother. you.
Julia: Oh, okay. You're allowed to hate how I met your mother. Mm-hmm Ted.
Julia: Mosby's kind of the worst. They're all kind
Natalie: of the worst if you boil it
Julia: down. Well, yeah, but I lo I did love Robin's character and I did love, um, Neil Patrick Harris. And it took me a second to realize that she was the one playing Anne Coulter. Cause she, I thought she did a really good job was like, yeah.
Julia: That's how that bitch really talks. How'd you do
Natalie: that? That's really talks. Did you ever watch Anne Coter on. what? Who's the Rob Lowe roast. she
Julia: was on the Rob
Natalie: Lowe roast. She was on the Rob Lowe roast. Oh, we're gonna
Julia: pull that up and watch it. Mm-hmm a hundred percent. No, I didn't see her. I didn't think anybody would want her.
Natalie: No one did. And then, so you're Ann Coter with a panel of comedians. Yeah. That's gotta be stress. And so eventually I think they end up making more jokes about her than they do Rob
Julia: that tracks mm-hmm cause that's usually what ends up happening in the roasts. I feel like anyway. Yeah. Like they always hone in on one and it's usually not the guest of honor, man.
Julia: I miss comedy central roasts. We used to watch this all the time, so good.
Natalie: But yeah, she got RO like it was hot and it was fiery. Yeah. And like she's sitting there. with her fucking pinch as Ann Coulter face. I think her, I think a book was about to release her something. Oh, okay. And then I was like, Rob Lowe has to be friends with Anne Coulter because he's a sex offender and we kicked him out of the demo democratic party, like, because he assaulted someone at the democratic convention and that's why he is.
Natalie: And that's his punishment.
Julia: It gets a little darker than that. Did you listen to the celebrity book club episode about Rob Lowe slash Melissa Gilbert's? Um,
Natalie: no, but I went to Rob Lowe's one man show and I almost couldn't sit through
Julia: it. Yeah. I, it that's a, it's a good episode. And, and the Rob Lowe memoir they talk about is one that I've read.
Julia: Yeah. And so when they pointed out an incident that he refers to as an incident, and then they bring in the context of what had happened at the time and like what was going on mm-hmm I was like, I don't know. I don't know if
Natalie: I can do this anymore with, in the one man show of Rob Lowe, he keeps calling attention to Chris Farley, dying of an overdose and Charlie, Shane being a hot fucking mess.
Natalie: And the entire time he's doing that, because he grew up with those guys I'm whispering to myself, well, you're a goddamn sex offender, but you're just the level of good looking enough that people are giggling during this goddamn show.
Julia: Yeah. And you know, the, they kind of commented too about how like, anyway, listen to the episodes and we can talk about 'em cuz they were really good.
Julia: And again, I read that particular Rob Lowe book. So I was like, you're right. They did just gloss over that. Yeah. Um, and it came out in 2011 I think. So there was a lot of speculation too about like, well the time that this came out and da da, da, it was interesting. Mm-hmm . Do you love to read pop culture makes me jealous hosts, a monthly book club that reads books that have been adapted for the screen.
Julia: We meet on the fourth, Sunday of every month via zoom. The book club is open to anyone, but Patreon pals can vote on our monthly read and have access to our replay. To sign up, hit the link in the show notes. Every Tuesday night, you can tune into Instagram live and watch still comfy a show where Julia Washington host of pop culture makes me jealous.
Julia: And Natalie Catona host of to all the men I've tolerated before. Take a deep dive into pop culture properties. They once loved to see if they still stand the test of time or view new iterations of beloved shows, celebrity, biopics, and television, reboots of movies or old ideas in addition to co-producing and co-hosting the live show on Instagram, the pair takes to YouTube and go live to discuss new movies that are rooted in pop culture.
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Julia: There's a hyphen in between become a member, become hyphen, a hyphen member. See you there. Do you wanna talk about the nineties fashion,
Natalie: man? That was my favorite part, especially the shoulder pads.
Julia: oh my gosh.
Natalie: Like, because I had like shoulder pads are still also kind of classified as a very eighties thing in like the rock world.
Natalie: Yeah. So then you're watching women. And they're walking around the white house in their suit jackets. And it's the first decade that women have ever been allowed to wear suits. pants and pants. They've got their, their shoulder pads on to the point where it almost looks like they're reaching their ears because of how stiff everyone's hair is.
Natalie: I
Julia: just don't understand the point of shoulder pads. No,
Natalie: no one does, you
Julia: know, it doesn't make any sense to me. Like why do you wanna look broad shoulders? I mean, that was rude, but you know what I mean?
Natalie: I think it has something to do with that truly being the first time that business casual for women got to include pants suits.
Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. So then they wanted to feel like powerful and filling out that suit too. Yeah. Okay. That's fair. But literally everyone's hair cracked me up. Mm-hmm the pants suits cracked me up. Did you have a
Julia: favorite hair?
Natalie: Um, , you're not gonna know who she is because I'm, I need to make a Grey's anatomy reference.
Natalie: do it anyway. Uh, there's a woman on Grey's anatomy whose face gets smashed in. I believe her name. ISBE the name they give her is Rebecca . Um, and her face smashed in. And then like Alex Carre, one of the doctors like takes her home and tries to have an affair with her. like, and her name is Rebecca. Um, the actress who plays Rebecca is the, the volunteer lady who gets trips
Julia: job.
Julia: Oh, interesting. Mm-hmm
Natalie: so like it, number one, I clock her anytime she's in anything mm-hmm but her hair, I was like, oh my gosh. And then, so you know how Monica's hair had like really severe bangs. Yeah. And then it was like really short by her cheeks, but then it was very long in the back. Yeah. And it was kind of shaggy.
Natalie: My mom had that haircut too, except for, it was the short version of that, where it's like severe veins, puffy, puffy FA, and it just ends short. I was like, so I was like, my mom had that hairstyle.
Julia: like, what do you doing, mom? You wanna look like Monica? Is that what we're doing today?
Natalie: Yeah. I mean, I guess I have photos of her, like my sister and I are like sitting on pumpkins or something.
Natalie: like,
Julia: oh my God. I love that.
Natalie: Yeah. Um, But yeah, hot mom had the Monica Lewinsky haircut. Oh my
Julia: gosh. That's crazy for your
Natalie: listeners who don't know on my podcast, we refer to my mother as hot mom because as we know I am the daughter of a hot mom. and that's where it all went wrong. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. That's your, that's your next spinoff show?
Julia: Um, I think it's, you know, I also thought was interesting about the show was how angry all the Republicans were about this. They were indignant about Clinton's behavior and then fast forward 20 years. And you're just like, oh, why aren't you indignant now, sir? Why aren't you indignant now? Ma.
Natalie: Yeah. Where are you?
Natalie: Because you're all the same people. I heard all of your names. Mm-hmm
Julia: every, and that's I think the part that made me the most angry mm-hmm was they were listing off all the people who aided and abetted. And I was just like, I, how dare you be so angry about William Jefferson, Clinton, and then still stand on Capitol hill and be like, what, what?
Natalie: And be part of the
Julia: assertion Uhhuh. And then in 20, between the years of 2016 and present day, what, what are you talking about? Everything. He was fine. It's he was, he did bad things. Oh, those women are liars.
Natalie: Yeah. No, well, like number one, everyone. What I didn't understand as a nine year old is that people who weren't Clinton's supporters were incensed, that Clinton got to be president.
Natalie: At all. Yeah. They liken the, uh, in one line from trip. She likens the white house to a frat house. She's like, he's turned it into a frat fraternity.
Julia: If she white, white house, if she only
Natalie: knew, right. Where's she now for the Trump administration? Like, I think when's
Julia: dead. Oh. Because I think her daughter was like, you know, I'm not super thrilled about this.
Julia: Mm-hmm because my mom doesn't have the opportunity to win. Yeah. She died in 2020. Yeah. She wasn't like cuz somebody tried to reach out to her for comment. And she was like, I just, I'm not like we're not going there. My mom deserves better. Yeah.
Natalie: Even though she's the villain of the
Julia: story. She's a hundred percent like, especially like, first of all, if you didn't think that she was the villain of the story you do after watching American crime story, the Clinton scandal, like they did, they absolutely eat down to the deviant smirks.
Julia: Mm-hmm
Natalie: yeah. Literally she, she is, as Elvis would put it, the devil in disguise and poor Monica Lewinsky. I've also been that idiot 22 year old, who will be friends with anyone who talks to me. Yeah. Cuz it's just
Julia: exciting. Cause when he wants to chat with him and then you tell them all
Natalie: of your business, like he came on my dress.
Julia: What? Yeah. When she's talking to the grand jury and they're like, why didn't you get your dress dry cleaned right away. And she's. Do you wash your clothes all every day? Like, though her answer was so logical to me because I also am that person who's like, well, this is a dry cleaning bill, so I'm gonna make sure I have enough to make it worth it.
Julia: Right. And do, and then Linda tells her don't even bother with the dress. Just leave it. Yeah. You know, like set up. Yeah. Like, do you not know how dry cleaning works, sir? Probably not because your wife probably handles it. My
Natalie: mother often told me that there was no way that Monica Lewinsky was smart enough to, um, keep the dress and keep it pristine with the sample oh my gosh.
Natalie: So it had to have been a government conspiracy, which I guess it was . I might have to call my mom after this and be like, mom. I'm so sorry. I thought you were nuts. Mom. I watched one TV show and listened to a podcast and
Julia: my mind has changed and my
Natalie: mind has changed because I don't know. And I still fall into this trap where I'm like, conspiracies don't really happen.
Natalie: No, one's actually out to get anyone else. Like you can take everything at face value and then you watch something like the Clinton scandal and you're like, oh, is it, is
Julia: it a conspiracy? Or is it sinister actions?
Natalie: What's the difference?
Julia: Well, when I hear, so I think so. I think my definition of conspiracy theory is changed over time because you have flat earthers now mm-hmm
Julia: And like, people like that in the world who are like, like people who don't think the moonwalk happened and like, things like that, like they have those conspiracy theories. So in my mind, Conspiracy theory has been co-opted by people who blatantly like just flat out believe shit. That's not real. mm-hmm okay.
Julia: So I don't. So, so when you, I guess, I guess it means, I guess it means both, I guess it means somebody could actually have been taking down the Clintons and the insinuation constantly about how they're very powerful and they make people disappear. I remember hearing that shit, especially when Hillary is running for president.
Julia: Everyone said that they're very powerful. You do not wanna mess with the Clintons. They're very powerful. And I'm over here in California, like how powerful are they likened to murderers? Yeah,
Natalie: I was told that they made, like, they literally paid for
Julia: people to be murdered. do you think, do you get, did you get the sense?
Julia: They kind of sort of like pushed that guy who took his life in the beginning to do it. Oh
Natalie: yeah. And then there's a suicide at the beginning of this show.
Julia: Yeah. Which thanks for the warning. Oh, I guess if you know the history, you know, it's gonna happen. But again, we were children when
Natalie: this happened children.
Natalie: There's just like, because it's something with real estate, like bill falsified, some documents, and the other guy was just like, I'm not going down for this. better to die by. You know what, if that guy hadn't commit committed suicide, Linda trip wouldn't have lost her job. No, she would've
Julia: not. She would've stayed.
Julia: Cuz
Natalie: she was married. How long Monica and bill would've gotten to date? Oh my goodness. Mm-hmm because did
Julia: she had gotten pregnant by
Natalie: him? Well, he
Julia: never came. Oh, that's right. And they
Natalie: only did oral. And cigar stuff.
Julia: That man girl, when they said that I was like, listen, I don't wanna kink shame, but how embarrassing that, that is now what everybody is reading about.
Julia: You
Natalie: mm-hmm . Yeah. Can you imagine how long that deposition took? Oh,
Julia: I think they gave her, I know his, the, in the show, they said his was four hours. I would be exhausted after that.
Natalie: And after mom with you, right? Or did she send her mom
Julia: out? No, they wouldn't let her mom come. Yeah. Um, and then, and then when Hillary comes up and she's like, I'm not reading the report to bill, I I'm not reading the report, but Chelsea did.
Julia: And then like walks away. I was like, damn
Natalie: home
Julia: girl shots fired. That's how white people shoot
Natalie: shots. yeah. When hill, when Hillary lost to Obama, when she ran for the first time and didn't make it out of the primary. . I remember sitting in my dorm room, looking around and people being like, what? I go, can you not hear it?
Natalie: Hillary is shrieking Bill's name right now. because this is all his fault. Yep. Which it would've been the outcome would've been the same if she had left him and not stayed by his side. Right. Right. There was no winning for Hillary. Right. And I'm pretty sure she knew it. Yeah. That is written all over Eddie Falco's face in the show.
Julia: All of the women involved, they all walked out completely brutalized. At least Monica's able to get some redemption now, which is lovely for her. Somebody commented in the show. How would you feel if your daughter brought home or your son came home and said, I'm gonna marry Monica Lewinsky? And like, she overheard that and you're just like, and all she wants in the whole series.
Julia: All she does is talks about how she wants to be in love and she wants to be married and she wants to have
Natalie: kids. Ooh. And I knew that Monica Lewinsky was body shamed. Mm-hmm during all of it, but the way that they weave that into the story and how that's, how Linda gets to manipulate her with the dress. I mean, like, it makes you look heavy.
Natalie: Monica. Yeah. Yeah. And I was on weight Watchers, not when I was nine at the time, but when my mom did weight Watchers, when we were older, she also just had us do it too. Like, that was my mom's like way of addressing my weight, not just being like, Hey. She also took me to curves curves, but it, it was all under the guise of, well, I'm doing it.
Natalie: So why wouldn't you mm-hmm like, you know, that's how she bypassed, like having a conversation with us or making us feel like she was shaming us, I guess. Yeah. She would just be like, well, I'm doing it. So what, you're not gonna do it. Here's your little cup of cheese to put on your one taco. Oh gosh. Because weight Watchers is just another way to starve yourself.
Julia: Yeah. And then when they, um, I don't wanna publicly say the things was Monica
Natalie: Lewinsky. I wish a spokesperson, a weight
Julia: Watchers. I was just gonna say, I'm pretty sure she had a weight Watchers deal.
Natalie: Uhhuh. Yeah. I I'm getting a, a son's memory of what that commercial looked like. It was her and Valerie Burton.
Natalie: Big weight watcher sponsors.
Julia: Yeah. And I think Valerie has switched to something else now. Yeah. But still the point is now they're WW, which is like no amount of rebranding.
Natalie: You can't say the word. Wait now.
Julia: Yeah. Like no amount of rebranding is gonna make this, but yeah. 7.2 million diet ad campaign spotlights.
Julia: Monica Lewinski. This was run in the Tampa bay, something or other December 29th, ninth, 1999. Yeah. Lewinski lands. New job is diet firm pitch woman in TV ads, weight loss, spokeswoman take off pounds. The way that they weed Lewinsky return of dubious celebrity. That's a 1999 headline from the LA times about her weight watcher, spokesperson ads.
Natalie: Good God. but yeah, her disordered eating, I didn't think that they would go there. I'm very surprised that they're doing that with the crown and Diana mm-hmm and again, I can't imagine being those boys, watching their dead mother be abused by their father.
Julia: Oh, well, Harry says you won't watch it. Good.
Natalie: And I
Julia: don't think that they should.
Julia: I think Megan said she's watched it, but Harry says he won't watch it. And I sincerely doubt prince William is watching
Natalie: it and I don't think that they should. Yeah. And that's how I felt when I went and saw Elvis and I was like, oh my God, Lisa or Ray sat through this. She loved it. I know she gave it
Julia: her Endor, her winning seal of approval.
Natalie: Did Priscilla go mm-hmm all right. Well good for them. I couldn't do it. It's too close, but yeah, there's so much, and there's so much encapsulating the nineties in the show, like weight Watchers and the way that we were all obsessed with diets. My mom only ate slim fast in the
Julia: nineties. Oh my God. My dad also had slim fast every single morning before he went to work.
Julia: And that was
Natalie: the only thing she ate. That's not, I mean, that's my mom thrived on like slim fast in the nineties. Yeah. I don't think they worked in slim fast though, unless, but Monica was always like, it's a chicken day. And then she like get to have one chicken in three green beans. And that was her meal for the day,
Julia: how we were so easily convinced that.
Julia: And they still perpetuate this on Instagram mm-hmm and social media, caloric reduction is the only way to lose weight. And you're like,
Natalie: Isn't, it's not like I don't. No, because your body starts storing calories, as soon as it feels like it's in a scarcity.
Julia: Yeah. And for people like for people like, and everyone, everybody's, body's a little different, like sure.
Julia: Yeah. There's like universal stuff, but also some of those studies are bogus because they only study tiny white people. They're not studying other ethnicities. Like my people are disproportionately affected by diabetes and high blood pressure. So like maybe do some health studies there. That would be nice.
Julia: We also, you know, whatever,
Natalie: I truly love that you say diabetes the same way as Brett Michaels, when we're rich and famous, I'm gonna make sure that we meet Brett Michaels and you guys can like swap diabetes over that way. We say diabetes.
Julia: I dunno, I'm sorry. Um, the
Natalie: diabetes , that's how he says it on rock of
Julia: love.
Julia: Well, I don't
Natalie: add the, the the diabetes
Julia: oh my gosh. But I do think that like, like telling people you're not allowed to have something. Yeah. It has it the wrong psychological effect.
Natalie: Listen, and I talk about it on my Patreon episode, which now gets to just be phone calls with my friends. Yeah. And cuz I didn't know what else to do and I'm, I am just letting my ADHD run my life at this point.
Natalie: So if that means that sensory wise, the only thing I can come up with to eat for breakfast is a slice of yellow cake with chocolate icing and ice cream. That's what I'm doing because then it's either do. or not eat. Yeah. Because everything else feels like it's gonna be gross. Yeah. I,
Julia: to, we have these con you and I have this conversation all the time.
Julia: Mm-hmm like, I just like, even last night it was like, oh, I just don't know what to do. Food wise for dinner. I'm feeling very overwhelmed, stressed out by, by this. And then I ended up just eating in and out at nine o'clock. Right. Nine 30 at night, which is not okay. I had an, I had a trainer one time when I was doing hit training.
Julia: Yeah. Um, he was like, you have to give up back Ernie and cheese, sir. Do I need to remind you that I am black? I don't understand what that means. No, you don't understand what that means. And two, how fucking dare tell me
Natalie: that have to, we all know what that means. That
Julia: well, kinda. Uh,
Natalie: huh? Ignorant trainer. Did you have mm-hmm mm-hmm that didn't know that black people love Mac and cheese it's and they're the only people who can make
Julia: it Uhhuh
Julia: And I said, I said, so I posted on social media about that. My cousin literally texted me and she's like, that's literally all we eat. That's all we eat. She's like growing up. I remember Mimi being like, Julie, what do you want for lunch? And you're like Mac and cheese. And she would make it for you. Yeah.
Julia: She's like, that's all you ate. Like how dare somebody take that away from you fucking quit that gym shortly after and
Natalie: I don't even have it in the freezer because the air's still broken. But my favorite thing is on a Sunday or a Monday. To take the three hours that it takes to bake a Stauffer's Mac and cheese.
Natalie: Yes. Family dish and eat it all week. Yes. Ugh.
Julia: I was just like, don't tell me, not just tell me to eat less, cuz I will eat the entire serving. Like, and by the way you, you make a whole caster dish of it. Yeah. Great. What's for everybody else. Plus I'm eating everything else that's been made. Like that's the, that's the problem, the problem isn't the macaroni and cheese.
Julia: The problem is my inability to stop eating the tasty and delicious dish in front of me. Yeah.
Natalie: Um, so Monica's disordered eating, which I guess was bold of me to call it that I don't know what she's been calling her eating habits of the nineties, but I'm convinced that everyone had disordered eating in the nineties.
Natalie: So there it is. Yeah. Was almost like. A background character. Yeah. But this show does prove that women don't just starve themselves for men. She was fucking the goddamn president of the United States and still starving herself. Yeah. We do it for society and for other women y'all yeah.
Julia: Do you love to read pop culture makes me jealous hosts, a monthly book club that reads books that have been adapted for the screen. We meet on the fourth, Sunday of every month via zoom. The book club is open to anyone, but Patreon pals can vote on our monthly read and have access to our replay to sign up, hit the link in the show notes.
Julia: Every Tuesday night, you can tune into Instagram live and watch still comfy a show where Julia Washington host of pop culture makes me jealous. And Natalie Catona host of, to all the men I've tolerated before. Take a deep dive into pop culture properties. They once loved to see if they still stand the test of time or view new iterations of beloved shows, celebrity, biopics, and television, reboots of movies or old ideas in addition to co-producing and co-hosting the live show on Instagram, the pair takes to YouTube and go live to discuss new movies that are rooted in pop culture.
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Julia: There's a hyphen in between. Become a member, become hyphen a hyphen member. See you. How do you think this show impacts your opinion subtle or otherwise about wealthy, powerful
Natalie: women? I think you hit it on the head. When you talked about the juxtaposition between Paula Jones and ededie Falco's Hillary's VO shoot and pinup shoot.
Natalie: Like the moment that shit starts to get real for Monica, she has all the resources in the world. Yeah. Her she's got two wealthy white parents who can't turn their back on her because then it is going to get out to the press and the shame will come to them. Yeah. Whether or not they help her out. She immediately has a lawyer.
Natalie: Like Paula Jones literally had to align herself with extremists. Mm-hmm like Christian extremists to even get the lady from who's your boss,
Judith
Julia: light, Judith light,
Natalie: Judy. I thought her name was Judith Day. And that's why Angela. That Angela Bowers. Yeah. Judith Day is one of my personal friends' names, by the way.
Natalie: God damnit
Natalie: best. I have undiagnosed ADHD and I'm just regulating it by letting it control me. Yeah.
Julia: Actually had somebody in HR, tell me, I need to stop saying at work that I have, um, undiagnosed processing disorder, cuz I'm not protected. If they decide to fire,
Natalie: like,
Natalie: like Paula literally had to like just align herself with Christianity mm-hmm to, and then it, it also set her up for a downfall. So she didn't have any help. She didn't have anyone like practicing. her, like they just threw her on a stage. Yeah. At a convention. Mm-hmm and she's like, I don't wanna talk about how I had to see his penis and they're like too bad.
Julia: And then the da, oh man, the nose job line. All of it. It's just so heartbreaking to see what it means when you don't have access to resources. Mm-hmm and then they drop her so hard. Mm-hmm because she's gotta pay. I mean, she straight up, I have to pay these lawyer bills. I have to feed my kid. Like I am in debt.
Julia: My husband still doesn't have a job. Right. Like they don't give a shit. The moral high ground is like, well, guess what? You did something that we don't agree with. So we're done. You're useless to us
Natalie: now. Right? So there it is. That's what money does it immediately? And I'm not saying like Monica did get slandered and she had a hard time.
Natalie: Mm-hmm and. , but she's also the one who's consulting on Hulu shows. Do you think that they've called Paula? Probably
Julia: not. She did go to school at the London school of economics. Yeah. So she also had the ability to leave the country to sort of recalibrate her life. Yeah. Yeah. Hillary got a second chance by running for the New York state Senate.
Julia: Mm-hmm us Senate. She was a us Senator. Um, and you know, here's Paula Jones with just hi hiding in her mom's house, sleeping on the pullout couch.
Natalie: with her dead beat husband
Julia: or their deadbeat husband.
Natalie: And also that was just a pride point for him. Mm-hmm he was mad that people at his job knew that his wife had to see the president's Dick mm-hmm and it's like.
Natalie: bro. That has nothing to do with you. Right?
Julia: Right. Mm-hmm we didn't give a moment for me Serino and I feel like we should cuz she did a really good job. She played Monica's mom. Yeah.
Natalie: Also I don't understand the Billy Eichner of it all when it comes
Julia: to the show. The Drudge report. Yeah. I remember hearing about the Drudge report left and right in the late nineties.
Julia: So to actually have context now of like who he was and what he did is like mind blowing to me. Cause I had no idea. All I heard the Drudge report, the Drudge report, the report, like no one ever filled in the blanks.
Natalie: Like here we are just us in our nineties eating disorders and Billy Eichner is in like a gum shoe, detective cereal from the 1940s.
Julia: And it's like, where's his girl Friday.
Natalie: didn't he? I was like, did Billy Igner walk into the wrong set? And they just let him hang
Natalie: like I did. And like, I, and I think I found it so ridiculous. I stopped paying attention to that subplot. Oh my gosh.
Julia: That's so funny. Well, he wasn't, this is
Natalie: dress in report who leaked the depositions. He, he
Julia: broke the story about Monica and bill, I thought, right. Maybe. And then he kind of, and then, um, the time, the LA times was like, we wanna run this and then they got bullied out of running it.
Julia: And then, you know, that became a thing too, that the, that Drudge sort of honed in on. And do you
Natalie: remember when our news had standard? And they were like, no, you have to have evidence to be in our paper. Yeah. So, and so then you'd have to go to like some second re rent, like gum shoe operating mm-hmm
yeah.
Julia: Guy with a hat you can, uh, you can actually think who's the guy that owns Fox news. Is it Richard Murdoch? Oh yeah. You can thank him for the dismantling of regulations on the, um, broadcast journalism. He, I mean, that was an active pursuit for like 30 years. So that way he could start something like Fox and I'm sure Fox news.
Julia: And I mean, then we got CNN out of it too, which I also am like, please, my sister will send me CNN articles and I'm just like, why are you reading? Okay.
Natalie: I have to get our news from the B. Same. I have to go to Britain to get my, the news for
Julia: my country. I, I like the BBC. I also some NPR, some, I don't wanna say this cause I want NPR to pick up my show, but I do listen to NPR a lot, but sometimes there will be times where I'm just like, okay, NPR, like I get that you're public radio and you have to compete with the likes of CNN and MSNBC and Fox and all the other guys.
Julia: But like this isn't you , you had, you had standards. They still do to an extent. Right. But there are some days where I'm just like, okay, okay. Like they did a story on the Ukraine and my son and I both were like, this is IPR, right? Yeah. Anyway, they reported every day on Ukraine for like, I'm
Natalie: surprised that the show didn't get any awards.
Julia: I thought they got nominated for Emmys. This this go around. No, didn't didn't Sarah Paulson. Are you frozen?
Natalie: No, I'm just listening. Oh, I thought you were Sarah
Julia: Paulson almost. Yeah. Sarah Paulson's nominated for Linda trip. Um, outstanding writing for a limited anthology or series movie for the episode.
Natalie: Manhandled. Maybe this was the word season. I didn't pay attention to because it was our first one after C
Julia: outstanding contemporary hair styling nominated. Yes. Makeup as well. Prosthetic makeup is also nominated. So Paris, Sarah, Paulson's the only actor from the show. It nominated, it would appear poor
Natalie: beanie.
Natalie: She never gets a break. Well, I and bowling her off of the broad.
Julia: Well, that's a whole thing. I don't know if you've caught, stayed up on that drama, but Duma is very informative in that arena, but I will say as much as Clive Owen was incredibly believable as bill Clinton. Mm-hmm I am glad he didn't get nominated, cuz I'm like, please don't reinforce these types of characters with, um, accolades
Natalie: Is that terrible? No, it, I mean, I makes it makes sense. Um, this is. Because I haven't mentioned it yet. I hate Ryan Murphy. So I just feel like that needs to be said, Ryan Murphy is a trash bag who presents us trash and then tells us that it's good every season for American horror story. And then he did that Hollywood series on Netflix that I watched with the mediocre man.
Natalie: And , I
Julia: didn't even finish it. I was like, I had di I just had,
Natalie: it was a weekly date and he would make dinner. Oh, well, that's cute.
Julia: I just had high hopes and it didn't meet them. And everyone on the internet loved it. And I thought, is there something wrong with me then?
Natalie: Yeah. And every time I leave Ryan Murphy show, I'm like you fucking trash bag except for American crime story.
Natalie: It's it's always this show that makes me believe that he can actually do things. it is not just a trick. It's not
Julia: just a trick. He was involved with
Natalie: glee, right? He glee is a trash show. Yeah. When we do glee for still comfy, I will have to come to the, to the hard knock truth. That glee was a trash show that I pinned all my hopes on.
Julia: It's a hard knock trash show. And now like half of that cast is dead. So it's
Natalie: like a
Julia: cursed show. Oh, yikes. I can't believe you went dark friend. I love it. When you stop by. I love it. When you come here, I love that we do still comfy together. Is there anything else about, um, um, the Clinton scandal that we didn't touch on that you feel compelled that needs to be lived forever on this show?
Julia: I would
Natalie: like Sarah Marshall from the Iran about podcast to be on my podcast and Raul your podcast. About how we treated women in nineties media. And that is all .
Julia: Yeah, that would be a great show. I think I love her. Okay. Can you, uh, life's hard. I haven't recorded in months, so
Natalie: yeah, you recorded last night with Maria
Julia: oh, that's true.
Julia: Can you tell everybody where they can find you if they wanna keep up with you online?
Natalie: Sure. I'm Natalie Catona. I'm the host of two. All the men I've tolerated before you can find it on Instagram at men I've tolerated pod. We are on Patreon. We have merch, we have shenanigans , it's a podcast that is about everyday misogyny and how we tolerate it, but we don't wanna tolerate it anymore.
Natalie: Jules has stopped tolerating it. She told me yesterday that I've killed her resolve. For mediocre men. And I was like, and that was my agenda.
Julia: might end up getting me fired.
Natalie: that's none of my business.
Julia: you did it yourself, Julia. Right.
Natalie: So please connect with me. There's stickers on the mark merch site. So if you need a sticker, just pop on over stickers.
Natalie: We all like stickers. That's why I made them. Yeah. Yeah. Aw,
Julia: pop culture makes me jealous is written, edited and produced by me, Julie Washington. And I am fueled by the incredible support system of women who allow me to run ideas, cry, melt down. Whenever I feel overwhelmed. I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon community.
Julia: Thank you for your continued support. It brings me great joy to bring you quality content and monthly. Get togethers. Thanks for tuning in y'all until next.
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