Normal People | 18
Show Notes:
Normal People is a novel written by Sally Rooney, published in 2018, and adapted for the screen as a Hulu original mini-series released in 2020.
This episode features Leah Carey.
Leah Carey is a Sex and Intimacy Coach and host of the podcast “Good Girls Talk About Sex.” Her superpower is radical empathy. She works with people eager to explore new avenues of their sexuality and fulfill their greatest desires, like diving back into the dating pool after a long time away, having first-time queer experiences, investigating consensual non-monogamy, or learning how to communicate about kink.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discuss pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington. And on today's show. My guest is Leah Carey and we are discussing normal people.
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Julia: www.popculturemakesmejealous.com or visit the link in our show notes. Normal people is a novel written by Sally Rooney published in 2018 and adapted for the screen as a Hulu original mini series released in 2020. But before we dive in, let me introduce you to my guest. Leah Carey is a sex and intimacy coach and host of the podcast.
Julia: Good girls talk about sex. Her superpower is radical empathy. She works with people eager to explore new avenues of their sexuality and fulfill their greatest desires like diving back into the dating pool. After a long time away, having first time queer experiences investigating consensual, non Monga. Or learning how to communicate about kink.
Julia: You can find her@wwwdotleahcare.com and you can find the podcast at www dot good girls. talk.com. Leah. Welcome to the show.
Leah: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and I'm so excited to talk about this book and TV
Julia: show. I am too. I would say that you are an excellent. For this conversation.
Julia: because as I read in your bio, you are experienced in the, in the area of intimacy. And there's a lot of intimacy in both the book and the movie. So yeah, there really, I can't think of a better person to bring on. Also, I love that you loved heart stopper. Yes. I also loved heart stopper. I watched it in a day because it's so good.
Leah: I have watched it front to back three times now and that's probably only the beginning. I
Julia: love that. I absolutely love that. It is so good. It has everything. It has the heart. It has the. Teen stuff and it just is
Leah: just, oh, it's just, it's so sweet. Yes. It's so just sweet, but real and not sugarcoating things.
Leah: Yes. And I think there are so many things I love about it, but one of my favorites, favorite things about it, and I apologize, this is maybe a little bit of a spoiler for people who haven't watched it, but we're full of spoilers on this show. Okay, cool. Um, is. Nick, the, the boy who is questioning his sexuality comes out as bisexual.
Leah: Yes. And, and he does not come out as bisexual as sort of a way stop on the way to realizing he's gay. Mm-hmm which so often is the way that bisexuality is portrayed. Mm-hmm he says he's very clear. I like girls too. And I like Charlie. Yeah.
Julia: I just love it. Yes. . I'm just happy that we're finally getting coming of aged teen movies that aren't straight, hetero, like, yes.
Julia: Thank you. I'm a sucker for a, I'm a sucker for a romcom. I'm a sucker for love shows. Like I am a sucker, but I'm also a sucker for like, if it's good. Give it, give it, give it right. Like just give it so the whole weekend or not the whole weekend, the whole Saturday, I was like, I can't stop watching this show.
Julia: I felt so that heart swell at the end of every time. And then the tensions that happened, it was like, oh my God, please. It had everything. It was so well done and I think I'll be like you and watch it again. yeah. I recommend it. Yeah. Okay. Friends let's do a quick summary before we dive in, and this is from the dust cover of the book.
Julia: So I thought it would be best to pull directly from the book because I think it encompasses the miniseries very well as well. At school Connell and Maryanne, pretend not to know each other. He's popular and well adjusted a star of the school football team while she is lonely, proud and intensely private.
Julia: But when Connell comes to pick his mother up from her job at Maryanne's house, a strange and indelible connection grows between two teenagers. One, they are determined to conceal. There's more on the cover than that, but I feel like that's a really great place to start. So we're gonna pause in that summary to kick off our talk at the time of the book's release, NPR books had this to say, quote, normal people is a compulsive psychologically astute.
Julia: Will they, or won't, they love story involving two of the most sympathetic people you're liable to meet between covers. Although hailed as a voice of millennials, Rooney offers plenty to appeal to readers across genders and generations end quote, the mini series is widely accepted and praised as well with variety saying.
Julia: With its trifecta of elegant writing, directing and acting Hulu, normal people is just as bleak and uncompromising as Rooney's novel, a feet and one that takes several episodes to fully absorb. So I wanna start in where we always start. What did you think of the book? And did you like it?
Leah: um, so I read the book after I watched the show mm-hmm and I am usually a person who's, you know, the book was better than the, the show, but this is a case where I loved the show so much that when I got to the book, um, And the writing is so spare mm-hmm
Leah: And so everything is just so stark. Um, and there there's no frills in the book at all. And that was, I just, I kept thinking of Daisy Edgar Jones in my head playing Mart. And I was like, oh, I kind of miss everything she brings to the role. Yeah. but with that said, yes, I think it's an excellent. Yeah.
Julia: You know, it's funny because Daisy, Edgar Jones, I think kind of looks like Sally Rooney.
Julia: Mm. And I think in same in conversations with friends just released. So I'm like the lead there also kind of looks like Sally Rooney. So it's like, oh, okay. I'm I'm here for it. I mean, that's fascinating. Yeah. Right. Um, I read the book first, when it first came out, everyone was singing its phrases and I'm.
Julia: NPR raised me. So if NPR says, read the book, I'm gonna read the book. and I, so I did, but, and it threw me a little bit because there isn't like quotation punctuation when the characters are speaking. So I had to kind of get comfortable with that. Yeah. But what I realized was as to your point about just how source, how spirit it is.
Julia: I, I, to me that feels very intentional because. You have to sort of try and interpret Maryanne mm-hmm just like everyone else is trying to interpret Maryanne mm-hmm and you don't necessarily get all the things, but when you see her with Connell, you kind of do get all the things about her mm-hmm and I thought that was really interesting.
Leah: Yeah. And I think one of the hallmarks of their relationship is that they don't really communicate very well to each other. Mm-hmm . And so the fact that we are not getting as the audience, we are not getting a whole lot of communication from them either sort of speaks to the characters that they are.
Julia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a nice, quick, short read. It's easy to get through for people, but I do think that it'll throw folks to 73. I think it'll throw people off not having, um, the quotation punctuations like that. That was
Leah: really challenging for me. Mm-hmm it took me a good 50 pages to fall into the rhythm of that.
Julia: Yeah. But once you do, and I think 50 is a good marking point cuz once you do get comfortable and used to it, you kind of realize who's talking and what's happen, you know? What's dialogue and what's not dialogue. And I thought that was an interesting choice and I don't know, and I meant to spend more time looking into her background with school.
Julia: Cause I know she did go to Trinity, but I wanted to look more into like her study of the craft and, and see if maybe that was a deliberate choice or is that just how it's done in Ireland? or like, I wasn't, I didn't spend too much time looking into that and I probably should. So let's shift gears and talk about the mini series.
Julia: It's 12 episodes. All of them are available on Hulu. What did you think?
Leah: I love this show. So much, first of all, I, this was the first time I saw Daisy ger Jones and she is a revelation. She is the perfect actress for this role. She's just incredible. It's like, Everything you can possibly imagine plays across her face.
Leah: Um, and I thought Connell was really well cast too. I think his name is Paul mescal. Mm-hmm mescal. Yeah. I thought that he was also really well cast because he just really reads as that like. Silent strong, man. Yeah. Yeah,
Julia: absolutely.
Leah: Um, and I think that, again, the fairness. Of the pros in the book comes across on the screen, but you get so much more like you get to watch their inner life on their faces in a way that I found really, really appealing.
Leah: Mm-hmm
Julia: they? I agree. They absolutely did a great job with taking the dialogue. And infusing personality into it in a way where you don't feel like you're missing something. Yeah. I mean, you're missing what you're supposed to be missing. Right. Cuz they're they're they tr they have struggles with communication, but you also kind of see that there's more to what they're saying, but their kids, you know, mm-hmm how we have a hard time with communication as adults.
Julia: So how can we expect, you know, 17 year olds to communicate? Well, that's so true.
Leah: Yeah. In. There was a New York times article that you and I both read, um, about this, where they say that the, um, the creative team for the mini series said we are using the book as a Bible. Mm-hmm like they, weren't just sort of making an adaptation.
Leah: Of the book, they were literally putting the book on screen to the point that the dialogue is literally word for word. Yes. From
Julia: book abso yes. I forgot about that. When I was rereading the book this weekend, I was like, oh, oh, this is exactly mm-hmm . This is the exact language they used. And it almost. It it, and I wonder, so sometimes I wonder if authors sort of intentionally do that because I read a story one time about how John Steinbeck was heavy on dialogue and of mice and men on purpose, because he wanted it to be adapted into something, whether it was a stage play or screenplay.
Julia: And cuz he initially was going to make it a, a, um, live thing, but then it turned into book for whatever reason. So he kept the heavy dialogue on purpose. So since reading that story now, I'm like. Do some writers go into writing their book with the intention of it being able to be adapted easily because it's not, it's, that's a thing that I talk about a lot on the show and dissect into.
Julia: It's not easy. People think it's easy. It's not easy because you don't wanna lose the integrity and you don't wanna lose the essence and the way that they did it and we'll get more into it later. , it was just, I was just, oh, this is how you do an, an adaptation you guys. Yeah. Like 100%. And there's stuff that they left out, but you don't miss it.
Julia: Mm-hmm when you're watching it. If you've read the book, you don't miss it. Yeah. And I think that's a Testament. This portion of the show is brought to you by tidy revival. If you find yourself stressed by clutter and want to create simple solutions that are easy to maintain, Carly Adams will teach you exactly what to do in the clutter free home process.
Julia: Course, community learn the steps she uses with every client. And tips to help you think like a home organizer using short, easy steps, plus get personalized accountability and access to the private community for a full year. Check it all out@tidyrevival.com slash pop to learn more. The 2019 New York times book review of normal people offered this of Rooney's writing.
Julia: Rooney is almost comically talented at keeping the lovers in her novels, frustrated. And apart when you are deep into normal people, you may start to feel that she has gone to this particular, well, one too many times within the first 20 pages, Marion and Connell have embarked on a physical relationship, teenage intimacy.
Julia: Isn't new to the world of television or even literature, but the intimacies, these two share, aren't like what we always. See portrayed in mass entertainment. So, Leah, I want to talk a little bit about the writing and the representation of the physical intimacy between Connell and Maryanne, because it starts in high school.
Julia: But as we see throughout the book and the series, it moves into adulthood through university. So do you think this story is helpful or hurtful to the conversation of sex and intimacy in representation in media?
Leah: I think that's such an interesting question that does not have an easy answer. Um, I think that in some ways it's incredibly helpful in that it's such a real depiction of what real people go through.
Leah: Mm-hmm , it's not a sort of aspirational. Vision of teenage romance and love. It's also not sort of the, um, you know, the horrific, this is how bad it can be. If you like, you don't know what love is. You're only 17, you know? Right. It's neither of those. It's really real. Um, there's it very early in the book, there's a description of Connell's sex life.
Leah: Mm. From before he. Um, he met Mary and her before they started their physical relationship where, um, she writes, he doesn't even really know what desire is supposed to feel like anytime he's had sex in real life, he's found it so stressful as to be largely unpleasant, leading him to suspect there's something wrong with him.
Leah: And that is. Such a beautiful encapsulation of not just teenage sex, but so many of the clients I work with today who are adults mm-hmm are saying. I'm doing sex the way I think it's supposed to be done, but it doesn't feel great to me. So there's something wrong with me when in reality, the problem is that nobody is talking about the fact that we all get to do sex the way we want to.
Leah: And we. We get to feel it the way we want to feel it. Our body gets to respond the way that our body responds, rather than taking, you know, the latest Cosmo quiz that says here's the way to give your whoever a, whatever, you know, like, and they present it as if there is one way. This I think is a beautiful encapsulation of what real sex and real discomfort around sex really looks like with that said, I think there are some, I have some really complicated feelings about how she handles ha Rooney handles kink and BDSM.
Um,
Julia: yeah, I actually was gonna ask you about that and, and we do have a, um, a talk we can get really in depth in it in a little bit. Cause I think I have a question about that later that I wanna explore with you, but you can continue. Well, I
Leah: think that, um, there is potentially some harmful stuff going on.
Leah: in that part of the story. Mm-hmm that I, I would have liked to potentially see handled a little bit differently.
Julia: Yeah, for sure. And, and, and I'm curious about your thoughts on that. So when we get to that point in the show, I'm gonna ask you some questions. Okay. I, I really appreciated how, I don't know if you, if you felt this way too, cuz you said it feels real and authentic.
Julia: It also to me kind of felt clunky mm-hmm because when you're a teenager, Oh shit. I'm 38. Let's just be roll. There are some times where I'm just like, I don't know. What's
Leah: happening. Bodies are weird. Sex is weird.
Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. And no one tells you that when you hit a certain age, it's like, oh no, no, you, you, this is not how that works anymore.
Julia: This is not how that's gonna work. Right. Which is fine. But I would've rather. Have figured that out. Not in certain situations. Sorry, mom. I mean, you're probably listening. um, there's a scene that, so to your point of, to the quote that you said, I really, what really struck me in the book was there was a point where he says, He's talking about, I think it's pride and prejudice or Emma, it's a Jane Austin novel.
Julia: And you know, he he's moved by this particular scene, but he's annoyed with himself because he has to stop. He has, because he doesn't have time to finish the scene. And he's frustrated by that Rooney writes he he's amused himself getting wrapped up in the drama of an, of an, of novels like that. It feels intellectually.
Julia: UN serious to concern himself with fictional people and marrying one another. Hmm. But literature moves him. One of his professors calls it the pleasure of being touched by great art. And I kind of liked that tie in because there's so much of the, like bringing that to the forefront of how Connell thinks.
Julia: And you know, the professor saying that because there is so much when, and it comes to the conversation of touch when they get later in the series and later in the book, So I really, I really thought that was a beautiful way to like, you know, bring in Austin and show that he is a little different than some of the other guys that we see.
Julia: Um, Maryanne encounter later in their life or in this particular, not later, they're like 24 when the show is done. It's not that much later in life, but you know what I mean? yeah. And
Leah: there's also, and I, this is what you're referring to. I think when you say touch becomes, uh, an issue between them, one of the things.
Leah: She, he says to her, why do you let all these other men touch you? Why do you flirt with them? And she says, well, you don't touch me in public because so much of their relationship happens behind closed doors. They don't acknowledge it in. So she says you don't touch me. So nobody else is allowed to touch me either.
Leah: And that's such a real. Conversation that so many people don't have, they just sit with the resentment mm-hmm and let it fester. And so I really loved that. They actually had that conversation out
Julia: loud. Yeah. And it's, and it's highlighting that we make. We create stories in our mind mm-hmm and rather than addressing it or having that blunt conversation because of whatever reason, we just allow it to become resentment.
Julia: The article that you sent me from the New York times, um, I wanted to read this quote really quickly, so we can also talk about this as well. And thank you for sending that. I don't know why it didn't show up when I was Googling, but you know, the algorithms . The New York times. And I think this was in 2020.
Julia: Um, and I'll link it in the show notes friends, cuz I actually think it's, um, worth the read. Yeah. November do know when the series came out mm-hmm yeah. April 17th, 2020, quote, the production hired an intimacy coordinator and thought carefully about how to translate the physical and emotional vulnerability of the book for television in a way that was respectful to both the original story and the actors performing it, the environment was warm and support.
Julia: Daisy Edgar Jones, the British actor who plays Maryanne set on set, but she added that some of the heavier scenes had stayed with her filming the period when Maryanne is very depressed and looking to violent sex for comfort left Edgar Jones. It's 21 at the time feeling really strange for a few days.
Julia: It's hard not to take that stuff on overall though. The show's prevailing themes as represented by Maryanne and Connell's relationship are inspirational. She said end quote. Um, and I think it's interesting because intimacy coordinators, you know, that's kind of a, I, I feel like that's a new concept. Yeah.
Julia: It very
Leah: much is. Um, in Hollywood mm-hmm , this is in fact, this show that sort of brought intimacy coordinators to the, the sort of mainstream consciousness. As far as I know, there were, there were a few theater companies that were starting to use them in the couple of years before that. And I think that it really started to gain some steam with the whole me too movement, um, where suddenly women were coming forward and.
Leah: You know, I was doing this scene and things happened that shouldn't have, mm. Or that I was, you know, we were rehearsing this scene and, or I was, you know, we filmed this scene and there was no, uh, there wasn't enough rehearsal time. And so like, I didn't know what was gonna happen and things got really awkward.
Leah: You know, there's just so much that can go. First of all, there's so much that can go wrong and awkward when it's two people who are actually making love. Yes but then you take two people who are not necessarily in a relationship who don't necessarily have that personal. Connection with each other who maybe are not fully comfortable with each other's bodies and you ask them to do those things and it is a recipe for disaster.
Leah: Yeah. And so these intimacy coordinators are doing such an amazing. Like, this is such important work where they're, they're doing a few different things. They're helping the actors to be fully comfortable. So one of the things that they do is they sit down and have conversations about. Like this scene.
Leah: Does it bring anything up for you? Do, are there any trigger points here for you that we need to be careful about? How do you want to play this out? Are there parts of your body that you don't wanna engage? Are there things that you don't wanna do and how can we bring each of your sensibilities and your, um, sort of sensitive sensitivities?
Leah: To this scene and make it still really fulfill the mission of the director and the writer. Then they all. So they do all of that sort of talking and emotional work. And then when they get to set, they actually do the choreography. So it becomes more like a dance piece than like two people growing each other's bodies.
Leah: And so they're the actual choreographers making sure that everybody's needs get taken care of.
Julia: which makes perfect sense for all the times that I've done theater, we spend weeks blocking mm-hmm . So why wouldn't you do the same thing for that scenario? You and, and I understand, and it's a dumb question because Hollywood all the things that happen in Hollywood.
Julia: But I guess for, for me, you know, it would, the discovering that intimacy coordinators are being hired more often in my mind. I'm like, why would you. Block this like mm-hmm because even though I, we watch it on TV and it feels real and it looks amazing and there's all this chemistry and whatever. What have you.
Julia: In the back of my mind, I still know it's fake. I still know that they're wearing like NTY pants. Yeah. That you can't really see on camera because of the way that the film works or whatever, but at the end of, but I still in the front of my mind, I'm like, isn't that just so real romantic but so there's this.
Julia: So in my head having the practical experience of D having done theater, I'm thinking, oh, , this is a, like, like you say, this is choreographed, this has been rehearsed. They've done blocking for it. And then to learn that, you know, this is relatively new, I'm just like, what is wrong with you? People? Yeah, this is not okay.
Julia: I mean, yeah. Good for you, Hollywood, I guess, for taking for starting it, but also shame on you for taking so long.
Leah: Yeah. I also come from a background in theater. Um, I was on the production side as a stage manager. How many times did we do shows where there would be a scene with a kiss in it and you would block everything and you'd get to the kiss and you'd be like, and then we kiss.
Leah: And then you would go on with the scene. Like that piece didn't get rehearsed until the last day or two. it's like, no, that's really important. You need to be comfortable with each other's bodies. Mm-hmm . And one of the things that I think is so brilliant about the TV show is that. It looks like real sex.
Leah: Yeah. It does not look like romanticized gazy sex. Mm-hmm it looks like real awkward, you know, like, oh, where does my knee go? you know, kinda sex it's really vulnerable. And that makes. I just, I feel so much less separated from it. Mm-hmm than I do when I'm watching a movie that has really gauzy pretty sex in it where I'm like, that's Bridger pretty but ,
Julia: we're looking at you Bridger tin and your over romanticized ness.
Julia: None of that's real. Bridger, right. sorry. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Because you, they are doing sort of weird exploration, um, and not understanding how to fit their bodies together. And I noticed too, there was a lot of like, is this okay? Kind, you know, happening, which,
Leah: oh my God. is that is consent conversation.
Leah: Mm-hmm , that is the stuff that we never get to see, unless there's a reason for it, you know, unless somebody's about to be triggered and there's going to be a meltdown or, you know, like there has to be some story propulsive thing going on for us to ever hear consent conversations. But this book and this show.
Leah: Really weave consent in. Um, I, I pulled out a few different quotes about consent. There's the night where they go to the party and she wants to kiss him. And he says, not tonight, you're wasted. Yes. Which is, I mean, Bravo to a teenage man. yes. Understands that you cannot give consent when you're, um, when you're altered and then there's another, I think.
Leah: Every woman who hears this is going to recognize this as something she has done under, you know, a variety of different circumstances. He puts his, this is one of the other characters at Jamie or Lucas. He puts his hand around her throat, the gesture doesn't frighten her. It only exhausts her so entirely that she can't speak or move anymore.
Leah: She's tired of making evasive efforts when it's easier. Effortless to just give in. That is so true. Of so many experiences that those of us who grew up as little girls have mm-hmm, where I, I could go into a whole rant about the way that we bring up our little girls and our little boys. Um, the. Top line of that is that we bring up our little boys to not take no for an answer.
Leah: That is what makes a great business leader is they just keep driving until they get the thing that they want. And we teach our little girls to say no a couple of times and then give in mm-hmm . And then we shame those little girls or the, you know, when they become women, we shame the women for not knowing how to hold their no, mm-hmm, in a sexual situation.
Leah: We shame them when they have sex, they don't wanna have, and then come out the other side and. That kind of didn't feel good. That kind of felt like assault. And we say, well, you didn't say no. So what are you complaining about? You just changed your mind. That's not how consent works. And that is such a beautiful example of how that dynamic happens.
Leah: It's just easier to give
Julia: in. Yeah. I've told the story. I think if not on the show before, but somewhere in the internet, I had a friend years ago when our, our boys were the same age and he had, the friend had two little daughters and the littlest one, I was like, oh, you and me girl were set. Were cut from the same cloth.
Julia: Nobody gets you. You're kind of people click wild . But like, I like just gravitate. I was like, I like you. How can we like make your life easier kind of stuff? And one day we were at the school pickup and I say, oh, can I have a hug? And she's like, no. I said, okay. And mom was like, give Julie a hug. And I said, no, no, no, no, no.
Julia: If she doesn't wanna a hug, she doesn't need to gimme a hug. And it was before we started having those conversations. Cuz I'm, we're talking like 10 years ago. Yeah. Wow. And, but I remember what it was like being told, like hug that person anyway. I don't wanna touch people. Okay. Yeah. Like I do not. So now I really love that we're allowing that children to have that decision and to, you know, re affirm that decision because it's like, I mean, how many of us are traumatized now in our thirties?
Julia: Because we had to hug a creepy uncle. I didn't have creepy uncles. I'm grateful. I didn't have creepy uncles. but there are definitely people like in the church environment where it's like, that person gives me the creeps and I don't wanna touch 'em you don't give that person a hug. Yeah, no you're being disrespectful.
Julia: Excuse me. What about respecting me? Like, who cares that I'm six.
Leah: Yeah. Nobody respect your elders because that's, what's important. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. They're all cheating on their wives. It's fine. I make that in judgment of the church. and not in, not in judgment of non monogamy. I just wanna be clear.
Leah: well, cheating is different than consensual, non monogamy
Julia: too, also.
Julia: True. Also true. Um, were there other scenes that struck you. Because this is your area of expertise. So were there other street scenes that struck you, um, in a positive way?
Leah: Um, well I J I mean in a positive way as they demonstrated something so well, but sometimes it was negative
Julia: yeah. Yeah. That's true.
Julia: That's true.
Leah: Yeah. The ways that Maryanne and Connell just can't figure out how to communicate with each other. Mm-hmm . So there's the moment when they're in his bedroom and she's getting ready to leave. And she says, well, I guess I'm gonna leave now. And he says, I think it's pretty obvious. I don't want you to leave.
Leah: And she says, I don't think it's obvious what you want at all. And that is like the first moment where they actually communicate about who wants what? Because they're constantly having like, there's that scene where he needs a place to stay for the summer. Mm-hmm . And he doesn't say it out loud. Yeah. So she doesn't know to offer that he can stay with her.
Leah: And so he says, well, then I guess I have to go home. And she says, well, then I guess you're gonna wanna see other people cuz she's trying to figure out what the hell's going on. Right. Get her feedback under her. And he says, yeah, I guess. And it becomes a breakup that they're both traumatized by. Yeah.
Leah: Because these two characters. like so many teenagers and so many adults don't know how to communicate. Um, some other things that I really loved is, um, are you familiar with the term sex? Brainin.
Julia: No.
Leah: So when we start to have touch, that's bringing us pleasure. We're starting to get turned on, um, chemicals, flood our brains.
Leah: It's just like when you get high, they , there's some of the same chemicals. And so literally when you are actively in the process of, of touching and being touched, you really are no longer sober enough to. Consent decisions. Interesting. So one of the things about a real consent conversation is that it should happen before your clothes come off.
Leah: Mm. So that you're not in sex brain. And there's a great example of this. Um, this is that one of the moments after Marianne has been through her sort of, um, kinky phase, um, where she's actively seeking kink. Um, she she's back with Connell and Rooney writes his touch has a narcotic effect. Mm. A pleasurable stupidity comes over her.
Leah: And what she's describing is sex brain. Interesting. Yeah. It, and it hits everybody differently. Yeah. Some people will become extremely vocal and extremely, um, Ry and moan. Other people will become very quiet and very sort of that pleasurable stupidity. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody has it differently, but it is good to know that once you're in that state, Are effectively high and you should not be making, having consent conversations at that point.
Leah: Wow. Wow. Yeah. So if somebody gets you, like, if you are making out with somebody and you are in that sort of high fun place, and they say, Hey, can we go a little further than we initially said your answer should be no. Yeah. Even if you want to, because that's your high brain. Saying yes. Your sober brain before the fact was saying no.
Leah: And so, um, the, the goal here is to remember that there's always going to be another chance mm-hmm so leave yourself, wanting more, leave yourself room to go back and say yes, the next time. but this time, hold your boundaries that you set up before you started playing. Yeah.
Julia: Wow. That's really interest as this many years old.
Julia: When I learned the reason why I had regret the next day. Exactly. again. Sorry, mom. I know you're listening.
Julia: Um, the scene that you talk about talked about earlier where Maryanne said, no, actually it's not obvious to me. I was so proud of her. Yeah. For finally saying what she wanted, because for the entire book, for like 10 episodes, maybe it's 11, we're watching her make. Decisions, not for herself. Mm-hmm , it's always whatever you want.
Julia: Mm-hmm , you can have whatever you want from me. You can do whatever you want. And I'm sitting here, like, I just want you to say what you want. Maryanne. Yeah. You're in this too. And then when she finally says to him, Just like fi girl mm-hmm, good for you. That is a really good step forward for you. Yes. And I think it really laid the groundwork for that final scene when he gets accepted to the MFA program and her willingness to let him go for a little bit.
Julia: Mm-hmm at least that's how it played out in my mind.
Leah: Yeah, that was, I thought that was really it. Beautifully done. And I have to say I did not get the same response to it, reading it as I did watching it. When I watched it, the way that I understood it, watching it on screen was that the two of them had spent so much time worrying about what other people would think and sort of just being buffeted around by the wind at any given moment that this was the first time they were making an actual decision and having an actual communication about the decision that they wanted to have together mm-hmm and they were willing to let each other go.
Leah: Positive step, like as a really positive decision. Yeah. Which had never happened before every time they had broken up, it was sort of because things crumbled, as opposed to saying this is a good place for us to move on in the book. I didn't get that nearly as much. And I'm not sure why. I'm not sure if she, she wrote it with a different intention or if it was just the pros that didn't catch me the same.
Julia: Yeah. You know, I'm going to agree because watching that scene, I, I had all the emotions and I felt pride in them for making such a rational decision. And they communicated, I thought very well with each other and maybe that's because we see the growth of them throughout and we like are actually seeing it as opposed to reading it.
Julia: I don't know. It just was. So it felt like. There's room for a sequel. Not that they're, I don't think they'll do a sequel, but she left it. I like how she left that sort of air of he's only supposed to be gone for a year. So who knows when he comes back, they could rekindle cuz they have that back and forth so much through the, through the book.
Julia: Oh,
Julia: I was just so it's like you get the payoff, like I'm so glad you finally, you guys finally actually figured out how to talk to each other. This is so happy. Thank you so happy. Hughes by Jules offers, custom artwork and original prints specializing in watercolor, focusing on the human form in different shades of skin.
Julia: If you're looking for that perfect gift for a birthday or have a special memory you'd like to commemorate visit Hughes by Jules on Instagram that's Hughes, H U E S by Jules, J U L E S. As far as book to screen adaptations go, do you think the miniseries gets it right? Oh
Leah: my God. Yes. . Yeah. I mean, like I said, that New York times article says that they used the book as the Bible.
Leah: I think that's, uh, Yeah, they get it right from soup to nuts. I think. What do you think? Yeah, I
Julia: agree. I forgot. Cuz I read again, I read the book when it first came out because everyone was raving about it. Cuz conversations with friends was so amazing and da, da, da. So when the series came out, it had been a while, maybe a year or two.
Julia: When did the it's a fir I have a first printed edition of the book. Oh. So it, I definitely bought it 2018, so I bought it in 2018. Um, And I'm watching the series. I'm like, all of this feels very familiar. I, I, I'm not miss. Like, I don't feel like anything's missing mm-hmm I feel like everything they pulled out from the book or pulled, pulled out and left out of the series that was in the book.
Julia: You could probably do the same thing too. Like Sally Rooney didn't need to have those scenes that didn't make it into the show for this to still work. Yeah. And I really, really loved that and I loved if they pulled the. Straight pulled the scenes almost verbatim. And when I was reading the first couple of chapters, I thought this kind of feels like it reads like a script because the way that she has her description, it feels like it's not, you know, it's not stage direction cuz it's not a stage show, but it feels like it's that basic simple mm-hmm um, direction in the script.
Julia: So you get. So that way someone understands what's going on, but it's not so much that a director or an actor can't infuse their own interpretation of what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that was really interesting too. And again, I would love to know what she was thinking when she wrote it. Did she write it with the intention of it coming to screen one day?
Julia: Because it lends itself so well to be a screen, I think you could even pull it off as a stage production if they, if they, if they tried. Yeah, because it is simple. It's, you know, When you think about. The way that the sets are, it's still simple enough that you could probably pull it off on stage. You don't need a whole lot, cuz they're in one location for a lot of the scenes there.
Julia: Isn't a lot of tr there. Yeah. I mean, yeah. There's some car scenes here and there in the series and in the book, but you could figure a way around that.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. I think so much of the success of the TV series and it's not that these characters couldn't have been played by other people they certainly could have, but I.
Leah: The vast majority of the success, the success of the mini series for me is laid at the feet of Daisy Edgar Jones. Yeah. She is just remarkable. In this,
Julia: she understood the assignment big
Leah: time. Oh my God. She did. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm now a, I'm like, I'm a Daisy Edgar Jones. Stan. I wanna see everything she's in
Julia: because of her and Sebastian Stan.
Julia: Cause I think it's cute. I watched that horror film. They did that's on Hulu and I don't do horror movies. A friend of mine, how? Cause I don't do
Leah: horror
Julia: either. it was pretty good. There were a couple scenes where it was like, okay, I know it's gonna happen. There's gonna be a lot of blood right here. Fast forward until the point where they're not bleeding each other anymore.
Julia: but I do have, I do have one gripe because the meat cute in the beginning is so. Freaking good. And probably, I would also venture to say a fantasy I've had in, you know, about meeting somebody in the grocery store and just hitting it off. And it turning into a thing is now ruined for me because of this film.
Julia: so rude. Don't mess with the meat cutes, man. Those of us who are obsessed with romcoms, don't do that to us. now I'm terrified you ruined me about meeting somebody in a bookstore. Like I can't St I can't. The list is, is hard. yes, it is. Yes it's. But I think that if you're gonna study book to screen adaptations, I think this is a really good place to start because they kept the integrity of the book, the message, and the themes that Sally was trying to give are still there in the movie.
Julia: Or the mini series and you really get the sense that everybody involved has an appreciation and understanding for the source material and I'm will die on this hill. And I've said this so many times on the show when we've done book to screen adaptations, when the people involved in the creative process for the screen adaptation have an affection for the source material, you get a really good product.
Julia: Mm-hmm that you really feel fulfilled by artistically mm-hmm .
Leah: Yeah. As opposed to it just being a money grab . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm
Julia: yeah, I did watch, well, I don't get that into that a little bit, but I did watch conversations with friends all day on Sunday. like I worked through all good. It's good. I worked through all 12 and there was a moment where I was like, Again, I read that book right when it, a little after it came out and I was like, I, I need to read the book again.
Julia: I don't remember any of this no, that's not true. I remember some of this. I, I, I remember very clearly the relationship between Nick and Francis. And a little bit about Melissa and there's like stuff around it, the peripheral that I'm just like, I don't remember that happening. Um, so that would be another, I think, interesting study to do, because book to screen, cuz they did Hulu did such and BBC did such a great job with normal people that does the same standard stand with conversations with friend and Joe Allen.
Leah: so cute. So I have not read that book. Um, I'm eager to see the TV show because it deals with consensual non monogamy. Yes. And I'm really excited to see how they handle it.
Julia: I would actually love your opinion about that. You know what Leah, what season four, we're talking about wealthy women, and this is an easy conversation.
Julia: I think that could fit into that with conversations with friends because Melissa and, and Nick are wealthy. Oh. Whereas Francis and.
Julia: Our students. So there's, you know how Melissa is represented as a wealthy woman, but then also the way that it plays into the consensual mm-hmm I would love your opinions. Right. And if you wanted to come back to talk about it, I'm 100% here for
Leah: that. Okay. So I should watch the show and read the book.
Julia: I'm here.
Julia: Yes will do. Yeah. Cause it's cause it's and it's well, we, I'm not gonna start talk, having that show right now. We need to, we need to, we need to wrap up. Okay. indie wire called this adaptation imaculate and honestly, I have to agree the creative team behind the scene lifted all the elements and fold all the scenes necessary to make this still feel full and whole something that could stand alone.
Julia: The idea that the book is better, could be argu. But the integrity of the story still rings loud and clear without leaving the viewer feeling like something is missing. Hulu isn't done with Sally RO, as we mentioned, her first book conversations with friends has been adapted and was released on May 15th, 2022 when normal people first aired.
Julia: It was in April of 2020. And I binged it late one night after a 12 hour Workday. And when I think back to that time, I can't fully remember what I thought. But I do remember thinking, oh, this is, I like this, Leah, thank you so much for joining me today. Can you remind our friends listening where they can find you if they wanna keep up with you online?
Leah: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. This conversation was
Julia: so much fun. Yeah. I learned a lot and I'm really glad.
Leah: Yay. um, so if you want to listen to my podcast, that's good. Girls talk about sex and on it. I interview. Women , which is the umbrella term. What I actually mean is I interview people who are brought up as little girls regardless of their gender today and transgender women.
Leah: And I interview them about their sex lives. So it's all everyday women. There's no experts. There's no conversation about how to give better blowjob. It's it's just me talking to people about their sex lives. Yeah. and all of the things we talked about today are, you know, there are BDSM, uh, relationships.
Leah: There's a there's the whole gamut. Yeah. Um, and then if you wanna know more about me as a coach and as a teacher, you can find me@leahcarey.com, L E a H C a R E Y. Dot
Julia: com and friends, we're gonna link in the show notes for you to make it easy to find Leah. Um, but I, I just truly, I learned a lot today, which is very exciting, cuz I grew up in a very conservative religious song.
Julia: so conversations around sex were not
Leah: a thing. Yeah,
Julia: it's fine. We're breaking cycles here.
Julia: pop culture makes me jealous is written, edited and produced by me, Julia Washington. And I am fueled by an incredible support system of women who allow me to run ideas, cry and melt down. When I feel overwhelmed, I also wanna do a big shout out to our Patreon community. Thank you so much for your continu.
Julia: Port, you help keep the lights on and the system going so we can bring you conversations like we did today. It brings me great joy to bring you quality content. And I can't like, I cannot express how happy it makes me to bring these conversations because I sure shit wasn't having 'em 20 years ago. So it's.
Julia: Time to have him now. Thanks again to Leah for joining us today and thank you to everyone tuning in until next time.
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