Bachelor Nation | 11
Show Notes:
The Bachelor first premiered on March 25, 2002. Yes, that’s correct, 2002. So even though this has nothing to do with high school, the show came to life twenty years ago and has spawned some of television’s most trainwreck shows.
This week on the show host Julia Washington and guest Natalie Kotona (host of To All the Men I've Tolerated Before podcast) discuss Natalie's break up with the Bachelor franchise.
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The Show: Pop Culture Makes Me Jealous
The Host: Julia Washington
The Guest: Natalie Katona
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Transcript:
Julia: Hey friends, this is pop culture makes me jealous where we discussed pop culture through the lens of race or gender. And sometimes both. I'm your host, Julia Washington. And on today's show, Natalie Catona is here and we are interrupting our regularly scheduled high school curriculum to discuss bachelor
Natalie: nation, the bachelor nation before the first time in bachelor history,
Julia: actually for the first time in pop culture makes me jealous history.
Julia: Love our show, but hate the commercials. Become a pop culture club member on Patrion for $15 a month to receive ad free episodes with bonus content bonus episodes, a virtual meetup to discuss movies and television and pop culture news, and so much more to learn more about how to become one of our Patrion pals visit www dot pop culture.
Julia: Makes me jealous.com or visit the link in our show notes. The bachelor first premiered on March 25th, 2002. Yes, that's correct. 2002. So even though this has nothing to do with high school, the show came to life 20 years ago and has spawned some of television's most train wreck shows. But before we dive into our discussion, let me introduce you to my guest.
Julia: Natalie is the host of the podcast to all the men I've tolerated before each week. She and her guest do a deep dive on a particular incidents they were made to tolerate met the patriarchy or misogyny and why they're done tolerating and ready to start thriving. So obviously, you know, I'm here for that shit.
Julia: Welcome to the show, Natalie.
Natalie: Thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me a platform to process why I am breaking up with my longest standing relationship. What I am breaking up with bachelor nation.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. I'm here for it. And also friends. I was on Natalie's show she's on my show. You could see how there's crossover because brace and gender issues and misogyny and tolerating bad male behavior.
Julia: This is a good fit,
Natalie: a good
Julia: fit. It's a good fit. So admittedly, I'm not bachelor nation, but I have seen a few episodes and have been on the peripheral of some of the drama. And I love the show unreal, which is on life doesn't matter. And I loved, loved, loved the spoof of bachelor called burning love. That was on comedy central.
Julia: So for those of you out there like me, here's a quick summary of the shit show, an eligible bachelor or bachelorette dates, multiple women or men over several weeks to find their one true love. Since 2002, the bachelor nation has been a fantasy of unrealistic beauty standards and a world. So white. When I searched the internet for bachelor season one reviews, the results came back pretty empty, rotten tomato, who usually has everything written about everything ever about entertainment.
Julia: Literally came up with an error message when I clicked on season one. So seeing how I can't seem to find any original views of the show, we're just going to start where we always start anyway. And Natalie, you're going to tell us why do slash did you love this show? Let's stay in the present with do, and then we'll get into your breakup in a little bit.
Natalie: Um, I would like to point out that I was 13 or 14 when the show first air and I. M a completist. So as long as the show is going to keep running, why wouldn't I keep turning in?
Natalie: And so here I am a 13, 14 year old unattractive, middle schooler, or early high schooler. And I'm just watching these pretty people hand out roses. I say pretty people. Um, you didn't find him I guess, but Bob, I know his like last name started with a G and like rhymed with funny or something. He wasn't, he wasn't pretty it's
Julia: 2002 was still like the beauty standards haven't really hit yet.
Julia: Right? Like you could still be like, nah, you could still be like pretty in like your body be soft. Right? Like you didn't have to be like tight and firm and set to be pretty. I'm using air quotes, people at home. Can't see me using air quotes.
Natalie: Oh shit. Oh, there we go. All right. You're watching these people go on like lavish trips and be like outfitted in diamonds.
Natalie: And like, they're not allowed to eat on their dates, but there's always a pretty, uh, plate of food in front of them. And you're like, oh, it's a fantasy. I
Julia: don't think I could not eat. If there's food in front of
Natalie: me, you can't eat because it does something awful to the mix of something about how your might oh my God.
Natalie: Yeah. So then I also remember that 2002 was like, It's when I think we hit our pride on like, love centered TV. Like, I was also a fan of Joe millionaire. Oh my God. Joe millionaire. Or like,
Julia: it was just like an average guy with millions. Right. And then they had to like, figure out which one was
Natalie: the millionaire.
Natalie: No, it was one dude. He was a construction worker and they polished him up and they took him to etiquette classes and they were like, tell these women that you are a millionaire. That's right. And then at the end he proposes to a check. And if she says, yes, I think they both got to split a million or they got a million to become millionaires.
Natalie: And if she said no, because they reveal that he's. I'm not a millionaire and that this has all been a lie. So it's also just like the circus element of it all, where it's like, you know that it's not real. And you know that this is in no way what romance should be like, but you're just all in.
Julia: It's like the constant meet cute in a
Natalie: way.
Natalie: Yeah. It's a spectacle. It is just a spectacle
Julia: spectacles of right word. But do you think it influenced you in a way, because you were so young to like, even though, like you knew it was spec as electrical and you knew it was a fantasy, do you think it impacted the way you approached dating?
Natalie: I don't think it approached.
Natalie: I think that I knew from a very early age that women who look like me. Do you not belong on the bachelor and the bachelorette. And like every once in a while you would see a woman in a one-piece and you're like, oh, that's what they think. Fat women look like. So they put her in a one-piece and then they're going to call that size inclusive at eight.
Natalie: Yeah. And then funny women never really do great on the bachelor and bachelor at because they're outspoken. And then like America loves to turn their back on the bachelor and bachelorette contestants. And so I think I always knew from a young age, like, oh, This isn't for me, I can't date men who belong on the bachelor because they are looking for very pretty put together demure, like no opinions.
Natalie: Yes. They're looking for the Vanna whites of the world to literally just touch a square and have it light up. The
Julia: thing about the no opinion. Like the thing that always strikes me about the show in the few times I've seen it where they're always just like the girls are always just like, the women are always just like, you know, I'm an independent person.
Julia: And I think for myself, and you're just like,
Natalie: but
Julia: because you kind of just got sucked into some really interesting shit on the show, and I feel like I'm concerned about your critical thinking skills
Natalie: in the later seasons. Finally, women have like taken. A handle on this. And they're like, wait, just because ABC says that the sky is likable, does that make him likable?
Natalie: And then they start to like go deep on their questions or like, really be like, well, I have to make sure that you are also husband material. And I'm always for that. I think within the house or the mansion, they always get like the, oh my gosh, look at her. Just trying hard. And like, why doesn't she just trust him?
Natalie: Like, it's almost like a betrayal to the show runner if you're like, okay, well, but do you like dogs? You shouldn't care if he likes dogs, you shouldn't care. He's the bachelor you should just be bought. You should just be
Julia: we trying to win him over. Oh my God, that's scary. That's kind of scary. And it reinforces some really negative.
Julia: Ideas about like, you know, girls lose yourself in your relationship kind of shit.
Natalie: The isolation of it all because they don't have their cell phones. Right. They have no access to like magazines, TV, books, anything they have unlimited access to champagne. They have unlimited access to women. They may or may not like, and they have kind of access to this rando dude.
Natalie: Yeah. Do you remember?
Julia: I remember you might remember, you probably remember better than I do, but I remember there was a season where like one of the magazines got into the house and like, that was part of the promo where it was like, they'd gotten a hold of like some of the publicity that was happening about the show and it was just like, don't, don't
Natalie: write.
Natalie: And like, that was like the biggest scandal of bachelor history. But now we have reality, Steve, who is a guy who either is married or dating, or he is somehow connected to the bachelor series. And he's constantly spoiling it for people because some people want to know the end result and like watch the love story unfold.
Natalie: And some people are in it for the competition. So like reality, Steve, like psycho analyzes everything. And then he's like, this is who's going to win. Or I have confirmed sources. This is who's going to win.
Julia: Interesting. The only season that I watched from beginning to end was his name, Joe Joe, when Aaron Rogers brother was on.
Julia: Yeah. That's the only one I watched from beginning to end. And mostly because. I feel like her bachelors were the most attractive group out of all of the bachelorette seasons that I had, like started watching, because, and I'll say this again later in the show, I literally only watched the first episode of the bachelorette because who doesn't want 25 dudes behind for your love all at once.
Julia: Like pick me, pick me, look at how hot I am. Here's a pretty
Natalie: pick me. I always find the first episode, the most boring, because it's shows like little vignettes of guys lifting and they're like, hi, my name is drew and I'm 27 years old and I run a chiropractor's office. However, I also love protein powder.
Natalie: Hold
Julia: on. Let me just get my, uh, protein powder real quick.
Natalie: Let me just get my shaker real quick. And then we can go,
Julia: hold on, please.
Natalie: They're naked a lot. They are naked a lot, which, which also played into my idea that I was not a woman who could be on bachelor nation. And maybe that's why I am always so grateful when men want to have sex with me because I'm like, I can't be on the bachelorette.
Natalie: You can't want to see me naked. I feel
Julia: like, I feel like, I feel like men of substance don't give a shit and that, yeah. And that makes me happy. And also conversely, like I like, yes, I love staring at a built body that looks amazing. But also at the same time, snuggling with somebody who is only sharp, edges is not fun.
Julia: You can go sleep in your own bed because I need, I'm going to just cuddle up these pillows because they're soft and squishy.
Natalie: I a spoon, my body pillow. While you go to that side of the bed. Yeah. Keep
Julia: your elbows away, please.
Natalie: Right. I'm going to put a, I'm going to put a pregnancy pillow around me, a body pillow behind me.
Natalie: So you can't poke me in any form in any form. They know what you're thinking. Yeah, and I mean, we talked, we talked on to all the men I've tolerated before about body image twice on our show and dependent on the day. It's like I'm having a current low period and my body image. And I can't imagine that when I was 13 or 14 years old, this was the most healthy television I could be watching.
Natalie: Right. And then to just continue into it, because now it almost is a way of living when you're in bachelor nation, like people do brackets, people have parties, Chris Harrison, the host was showing up to people's like finale parties. I'm like, how do we get Chris Harris? Into my
Julia: house. Like, so when they say bachelor nation, like this is like an actual cult following situation, like the bracket thing that's wild.
Natalie: Oh yeah. You could do it like, like men have fantasy football. I think that's a thing. And then we have our bachelor bachelorette brackets and I've never done one because I'm never that organized, but, but people do and you can download them from the internet.
Julia: Dang. That's intense. I don't know if I could, I don't know.
Julia: I'm such a hopeless romantic that I don't know. I think that's why I like shows like love is blind or there's another one that you and I kind of talked about offline a little bit, that three male contestants. And they had to, um,
Julia: their, their, the women were standing in boxes in the very first episode and they had to like. But the men can see them. I don't think they're picking them based on personality to be in the house or whatever. Anyway, I don't know, whatever. I'm just like, please
Natalie: go ahead. There is something odd about the competition aspect of it, because on love is blind.
Natalie: There's a little bit of competition because you can go back into the male house or the female house and like, be like, yeah, Shane likes me the best. And, and then people get all in their head or whatever. Cause you're all dating the same people. Um, that didn't happen on my failed web series. Date and version of love is blind because we were all just giggling and like exchanging notes.
Natalie: Like so-and-so said that he was this tall. Cool, cool, cool. Like there are some people who ask really detailed questions like, oh, you got aging. That's right. I'm 32. I need to care about people's age. How old are people in those pods? Right.
Julia: Cause you know, what I noticed is like, I think the oldest person on love is blind is 35.
Julia: And then I was trying to think about all the few times I've watched bachelor. I'm like, was anybody over the age of like 32? I feel like the oldest person was like 32 on one of the seasons. One of the episodes I watched. So
Natalie: we recently had our oldest bachelor at, and she didn't even do a full season. How old is Claire?
Natalie: I
Julia: don't know. Probably younger than
Natalie: me. She is so she's 40. So she she's 40 currently. So she was probably 37 or 38 on her season. And she was very much marketed as the old. Elderly batches of our time. And she had been on one of the like original season. She was on like Juan Pablo season. We're talking like 2007 ish.
Natalie: If I have to make a timeline to it. And. She had done bachelor. She had done a bunch of different seasons of paradise. I think she did the winter games of the bachelor, but she had never been the show runner. And she finally gets to be the show runner at 37 fucking years old. And it's the COVID season.
Natalie: Right.
Julia: So it's just
Natalie: in a Lakita. And I remember texting my friend. I was like, if anyone was going to do the Lakita season of the bachelor at, of course it would be fucking Claire because she's waited for so long. Yes, ABC. I'm about to be 40. So it's now or never.
Julia: Oh my gosh. That's wild. Like, I feel like. I really want, well, I don't feel like I've definitely want, I really want a freaking matchmaker show for people that are only like the youngest is 35.
Julia: Like, you can't be younger than 35, maybe 33, because I feel like I don't want to watch a 27 year old talk about how all of their relationship, like, like to me, I'm like at 27. Yes. I had dated a lot of people, but also like, it's not as compelling as like in 10 years when you're like, now I've got my shit together.
Julia: Maybe I'm 37 and I barely have my shit together. But you know, like now I have like a little bit of a better understanding and now I know what I want. So I feel like it'd be really fun to watch people who genuinely know what they want in a relationship 35 and older.
Natalie: So I believe they're doing, or they were advertising like a senior citizen version of the bachelor bachelorette.
Natalie: And I asked my friends, I was like, should you guys nominate me for this? It's like people in their fifties and sixties. And I was like, should you, I think, I think they're advertising it. Like it's 50 and 60 year olds, but I'm pretty sure they really mean me like 33. That's what they mean by like the golden age for bachelor bachelorette, elderly version.
Natalie: Very rarely two or else like the guys are allowed to be a little bit older if you're the show runner and then everyone that's in the pool is from like 20 to like 28. Oh. And then you sprinkle in a couple of women in your 30 in their thirties. And I was like, please just pick someone age appropriate.
Natalie: Yeah. And then you're just like leaving it up to a dude to be like, I could pick someone who is age appropriate for me.
Julia: Can you though? I'm really like, can you though you applied to be on the bachelor, so we're going to go with your judgment skewed, just a smidge already.
Natalie: And then they all were always get skewed as like the best friend, like, oh, like we're dating, but like, you're really just like my gal on the inside of the house telling me what the, what the drama is or like mothering him.
Julia: That's what they did like on, um, FYE island. Did you watch
Natalie: that one? I love Nikki glacier. So I tried to watch fuckboy island so much, but I only made it through like two episodes. Oh
Julia: my God, I couldn't stop. I couldn't stop. And then I started live-tweeting when I was watching it. And one of the do shirts like responded to my
Natalie: tweet.
Natalie: It
Julia: was like, okay, this is how we get attention on Twitter. Got it.
Natalie: Because like, I couldn't, I couldn't stand listening to those men talk. And then it's like, oh my gosh, are you a player? Or are you a real man? And I was like, jokes on all of us. They are all douchebags. Like, that's the twist that we've all seen come eight.
Natalie: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: There was a couple of guys on there. I was just like, I date you. And they ended up being like the nice guy, but again, in real life, when you get them in real life, are they really. Who knows we are looking for advertising partners. When you support this podcast, you're supporting a woman owned BiPAP, small business.
Julia: We're looking for other small business partners who want to get in front of an audience of like-minded folks looking to smash the patriarchy and make cultural change. If that's you email us at pop culture makes me jealous to get started. Just put ad partner interest in the subject line. Can't wait to hear from.
Julia: Since the bachelor has graced, the airwaves spinoffs of the show have emerged. The bachelorette hit airwaves in 2003. Bachelor in paradise showed up in 2014. And then you mentioned winter games. Yeah. And so bachelor bachelor in paradise is amongst the more popular, but the franchise includes a touring show podcasts and a cult following that is a little scary, but what was the scariest?
Julia: It's just how white this show is. And just how much controversy hit Rachel Lindsey season in 2018, the New York times ran a review of two recently released books that take a deeper look at the phenomenon that is bachelor nation. And the writer of the article had this to say about the. What's most striking is the participants' collective willingness to play along with their producer shaped storylines, either in the hope of airtime or out of a sort of Stockholm syndrome.
Julia: So, Natalie, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I want to get into it a little bit more. Tell me why do you think there's such a willingness to play along and be a contestant on a show like this?
Natalie: So this was a really good question for me because I have almost a firsthand experience at this because during quarantine, um, an organization in Dayton ran its own zoom online web series version of love is blind and I was a contestant.
Natalie: Never, it never aired. It never aired. I'd watch it. I know it makes me sad too, because I was going to send it to ABC and Netflix to get me on that. Your audition
Julia: tape, that's totally your audition right there. 100%.
Natalie: So anyway, We did it, it was a week. I dated like 10 guys for 10 minutes and then it pared down from there throughout the week.
Natalie: And what I've noticed and what I noticed during Katie Thurston season, which was the last season of the bachelor that I watched there is like a pressure to the show where it's like, yeah, I'm here to quote unquote, find love, but I am also the bachelorette for the season, or I am the guy pining for the bachelor at the season and it becomes.
Natalie: Almost a job and almost a role that you are playing. Interesting. So Katie had this guy who we all thought was her front runner, Greg, and we all thought that he was going the distance and she knew he was going to be her pig. He knew he was going to be her pick, but she wanted to finish out the show because she was so show runner and the show can't happen if she bows out after she's made her choice.
Natalie: And Greg had a meltdown now, whether or not anyone was in the right or the wrong in that situation. I got a new clarity on when incomings podcast good for you with Katie Thurston on it, because she's like, you don't understand, like they make it seem like it's your responsibility to hit these mile marks.
Natalie: And I'm like, no, I get it. Like for 20 years we've been watching the show and we're accustomed to hometowns. We're accustomed to fantasy suites. We're accustomed to there being a billon. It's a very scripted way of falling in love. And then if you don't play along with it, they don't know what to do with you.
Natalie: Plus there's your after. After the bad color bachelorette, this could be your future. It could be paradise. It could be Instagram followers. It could be podcasts that ABC pays you to do. As someone who wants to escape their day job, I could see myself because I did do it. I gave myself all over to the stupid little web series in Dayton, and I dated a guy for two months because I was like, this is going to be really great for the plot.
Natalie: And I'm going to be the longest standing couple from this love is blind shit show. And I'm going to, I think they were like gonna get us like a weekend or a weekend at Hocking Hills. And I was like, and I'm going to get to go on a trip. Yes. When I, and that's part of the problem. Well, not the part of the problem, but the appeal of being on the bachelor bachelorette.
Natalie: You're going to Croatia. You're going to Paris. You're go. You are jet-setting. Yeah. So it's like, sometimes I am willing to pretend that I like you for a trip. Like
Julia: I get that. I like, when I left my job, I was like, man, there goes all my free vacations because they ha you have to do training. And so it's like, where is the training happening with that?
Julia: I also want to visit Palm Springs. Okay. Santa Barbara. Okay. San Luis Obispo. Okay. Like, yes. I went to Dallas one time. Not exactly my ideal setting of a trip, but I have friends there. So it worked out. I got to see my friends without having to pay any money to do it.
Natalie: And then what unreal kind of shed some light on is that people who are going to go the distance with the show runner, get their own producer.
Natalie: So then you're having a person one-on-one coaching you and being like, come on, we can do. Come on, we've got this. And so then there's that also a false sense of security and building a relationship. And I do think that the show really does a great job orchestrating that you do believe that you have real feelings for the show runner.
Natalie: Yeah. It's
Julia: like when you're in high school and your friends, like, oh, I heard so-and-so has a crush on you. Like include plus when she's like, I saw Elton was talking about you, he gave you, you gave him a sweet tooth and she's like, what? God. And then just falls down that rabbit hole of like Elton likes me.
Natalie: He does open what's the worst character, but I do love the roll in with the home. And I love Jeremy Sisto. He was great in suburbia. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. All right, Brittany Murphy,
Natalie: I'm just going to let that sit for a moment. It did something to my brain because I am also a consumer of real reality TV. So I had dating reality
Julia: TV, general reality TV across the board.
Natalie: We were a big Supernanny family. When you were survivor, I loved the mole. Right? I
Julia: forgot about that show.
Natalie: Um, American idol, masks, saner. I love also
Julia: reality. Oh, I went to high school with was the top 10, one of the top 10 contestants in the first season of American idol.
Natalie: Oh.
Julia: And we were like, obviously, cause she sings.
Julia: Like she would always sing the national Anthem at graduations and stuff. I wonder if she'll be at our 20 year reunion, which is happening this year will be interesting.
Natalie: So I get it because my brain also went into like, okay, this is how you like orchestrate like the cute, funny, fun banter. I still have friends that were on the lives or not the live stream, the web series with me.
Natalie: And they were like, I didn't know what to fucking do during those confessionals, because they would make us tape confessionals about the night. And I was like, you didn't know how to, how to do a, a confessional. And they're like, You did? I was like, yeah, I watched the bachelor every year. So I would be like, okay.
Natalie: So, and then I would, like, I took on a whole ass character, like, this is my moment to be on reality TV and I'm going to do it.
Julia: I love that. I feel like, um, I'm always feeling like I'm being like, I'm prepared to be interviewed all the time because I'm just talking to myself in the car, like something happened and I'm debriefing in the car to myself and I'm sure people are probably like, oh, she must be on the phone.
Julia: I'm not on the phone. I'm debriefing that interaction. I just had telling no one, but myself, what just happened and how I feel about it.
Natalie: I'm always crafting my statement. I should have been a PR person because when I see bad statements, I'm like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: That's I struggle with that. I work in communication.
Julia: So I also, I feel your pain because there are times I'm just like, I know you have a team and that's what you put out.
Natalie: And then you have to also combat the story that the bachelor bachelorette crafts for you. So if you're the villain, that's how America knows you for ever
Julia: know. It's the hard lesson in that.
Natalie: Yeah. And Luke something, he, I believe in the, his name. Oh, Luke P on Hannah Brown season. My sister watched one episode with me and she was like, what the fuck is wrong with that guy? I was like, he's evil. Incarnate. He is evil. And I had a friend where he would watch Monday night. I would watch Tuesday because I have Hulu.
Natalie: And then on Wednesday we get in his little office of a closet and we'd be like, blah, blah, blah, Luke P dah, dah, dah, dah, Hannah Brown is famously the bachelor who screened. Yeah. I fought through it in a one windmill and I did it four times
Natalie: because that guy was trying to slut, shame her for doing the show. Yeah. So it's also like once you have that identity on the bachelor bachelor, you have it forever. Oh man. And it's just so it's consuming. So I understand why these 20 somethings. Who probably do want to be some sort of famous. I love when they, like, when someone's like, oh my gosh, he follows Kim Kardashian on Instagram.
Natalie: He's just here for the fame. Aren't you all
Natalie: just like bill and I's people for trying to get clout and followers. I was like, isn't that what we're all doing? That's
Julia: kind, kinda, that's kind of why we're all on social and.
Natalie: Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I get why it, people just give themselves over to the process. Do you think that,
Julia: what, how do you think they would have painted you if you were on the
Natalie: bachelor? Um, so number one, when I was on our little version of love is blind. I was very much the free spirited one and like I had nothing to lose.
Natalie: So like I would tell those guys, yeah, I keep crystals in my bra and this, that, and the other, because it's literally a black screen, but do I care? Um, I definitely think that I would also be the funny girl that gets pushed to the side. Sometimes the funny girl gets to be the show runner. Sometimes the funny girl gets to be on the first round of paradise.
Natalie: So it's still like works out to be the funny best friend, girl of the show. But it's also really hard to be the funny girl, because if you're also gathering a lot of attention, then the house is mad at you. I would be like the dude's best friend or like the wacky one. You're the one who's like drinking moon water and like talking about auras and stuff.
Natalie: Nice. Um, reading all of the girls taro. Yes. One season there was a spy. Um, the bachelor, he had his best friend's wife or someone or his best female friend be in the house with the women. And then she would report to him and my mom and I, because my mom used to watch the show with me to my mom. That would be the best job.
Natalie: Yeah. Cause like you could show up to the rose ceremony and everyone's in a gown and you're eating like Ben and Jerry's out of a tub and you're broke and you're still like, what were we supposed to dress up? And they're like, we don't get what the fuck is up with Natalie, because she barely acts like she cares about.
Natalie: Yeah. It's like, and then eventually I think it was like four weeks in. He like, they revealed that she was a spa.
Julia: Oh my God. I love that. I would want to be the spy. I think
Natalie: that's what I'm saying. Yeah.
Julia: For our friends at home, these next sentences mean nothing to me because I have, as I've mentioned before, I'm not the bachelor nation, but Natalie, I understand that Kaitlyn Bristowe season is your favorite season.
Julia: So can you please tell me why? And when, when did her season error? How long am I?
Natalie: Gosh, I looked this up. So she was on farmer Chris's Chris, is that really what they called her? Yeah. Cause he was a farmer. Oh, that's cute. And no one talks about him anymore because I think he was like part of a vehicular homicide or something
Julia: like we gotta get as far away from this guy.
Natalie: Yeah. I don't know the exact years. I know that it was, oh, it was season 11 that she was on. And the thing about Kaitlin was there were two women who were like complete opposites, Caitlin, and this other woman Britt, ABC couldn't decide who would make the best front runner. So they put them both on the premiere and they had the men vote on who they wanted to date.
Natalie: Oh my God. I remember liking Caitlin over Brit. I remember liking them both, but then Caitlin was another, she was the funny girl. So you wanted to root for her? She was outspoken. She would be as with people she was sarcastic or whatever. And then I like Katelyn the best, because she was always like, just also like, well, yeah, I made out with the dudes, what else are we
Julia: supposed to do?
Julia: Is that
Natalie: what you're supposed to do? Right. Or like her season, they really tried to paint her as like the slutty bachelor out. Like, we'll get her sleeping around. I was like, don't we all sleep from Roundup.
Julia: Oh yeah.
Natalie: Isn't that? What
Julia: the, what the fantasy suite. That's the whole point, right? Cause there's no cameras in there.
Natalie: So the guy that Kaitlin slept with before fantasy suites on the bachelor at, or was like, made to believe that. Nick he used to be a bachelor bachelorette villain because he would show up to the, uh, seasons and he'd stir stuff up. And he was also the first person to admit on an after the rose that they had had sex.
Natalie: And he threw his bachelorette under the bus. And he's like, if you didn't love me, why did you make love to BU oh, yes. And like, he still keeps to like hanging around and every time he's around, I was like, didn't we. As a bachelor nation decide that we don't like Nick, but it always fell on the women. Like Nick Viall would show up and like stir things up and then he wound, and then it was the women who are mean or unfair to him.
Natalie: It sounds like real life. How you hurt me? Imitates life.
Julia: rude. Rude. Okay. Hey friends. Did you know that I have spoken about representation in media and literature, other than just on the podcast. I've been booked to speak at company meetings, panel discussions, voiceovers for commercials and video narratives and to moderate discussion panels.
Julia: To learn more about how you can book me for an event, just shoot me an email pop culture makes me jealous@gmail.com. You speaking engagement as the subject line, looking forward to working with you. We really can't talk about the show without talking about Chris Harrison. The now former host of the bachelor shows he was fired in June of 2021.
Julia: The bachelor franchise doesn't exactly have a reputation for being super diverse and PR ran an op ed in June, 2022. Dismantling the bachelor's racist and sexist elements has only just begun. I've mentioned earlier. And on the show many times before that, the only time I watched anything, bachelor nation is usually the first episode of the bachelorette because, because I want 25 guys chasing after my love and affection and doing all the things for me.
Julia: Um, Because I find that a little bit more tolerable than like what they do to the women. I don't know why I don't hate it when they do it to the men, but I hate it when they do it to the women. So, Natalie, let's talk a little bit about the Chris Harrison controversy in the events leading up to his termination, because I feel like all of this and I'm could be wrong because again, I'm not bachelor nation, but I feel like all of this really was something brewing about, you know, the show being homogenous was coming.
Julia: Cause you know, Rachel Lindsay had stuff and she's still actively like speaks out from time to time. If she's asked about it, her time on bachelor and like all this stuff. So let's just get into it.
Natalie: The Chris Harrison thing as a person who's watched the show. From her youth and believed that. And again, it comes down to the good and the bad binary.
Natalie: What makes a good person, what makes a bad person. But when you're just like a person who's watched a show for 20 years and has just like set out loud, if only Chris Harrison could fix my love life, because his role on the show is to basically be your parent. So if you're the front runner and you're about to have a meltdown here comes Chris, oh, if you're the front runner and one of your top people, if you're the show runner and one of your top people quits, and now you feel like you should quit too.
Natalie: That was the person I was going to propose to. Here comes Chris Harrison. And his whole job was to not only say ladies, this is the final rose of the evening or in a bachelor nation's first, his job was to coddled the show runner. So a show could happen. So it's a very endearing and it's very parental role in, or any of us who have parent issues.
Natalie: You're just like, I love you, Chris Harrison, please hug me. And then Matt, James, Liz season happened, and Chris was great to Matt James. I will go down and say that being the first black man as the show runner on the bachelor. And it only happens as the bachelor is getting all of the shit for how it treats its people of color.
Natalie: I also believe behind the scenes, there was like some switcher. Like they were going to give it to someone from the former season. And then like, they started to get heat and they were like, Ooh, switch or Ru. So it was
Julia: Matt, James, not a previous contestant. He was brand new to the franchise.
Natalie: He was brand new and we haven't had a brand new person be a show runner in a hot minute.
Natalie: Yeah. Because
Julia: isn't that the point of the bachelorette, they plucked somebody from bachelor and make her bachelorette, and then they plucked somebody from Blatch bachelorette and then they make him bachelor. Like that's the whole,
Natalie: so in sexual cycle, Matt, James was a friend of someone who was on the bachelorette.
Natalie: Tyler, Cameron, I think his name is, watch me say, like, I didn't remember any of their names and they're all just coming to me. So Chris Harrison did a beautiful job. So like supporting Matt, James into what I cannot imagine was a mountain to climb because not only are you the first black batch. But you are also brand new to the shit show of a franchise because it's
Julia: like, at this point, people understand what they're getting into when they apply to be on the show.
Natalie: When was his
season?
Julia: What year was his season? Was it in 2021?
Natalie: Okay. Yeah, it was the second bachelor. It was the first bachelor season of the pandemic, but it was like after the first bachelor at, so the second of bachelor nation. Gotcha. Now all of this happens before all of the show shenanigans. Happen before, uh, America gets to watch it.
Natalie: Like we're not watching it in real time. Right. So ABC is already well aware of who wins, who he proposes to, who he may or may not be kind of living with, or like having a secret long distance relationship, all of it. And then that Rachel girl, some unsavory photos come out of her in her sorority girl days or whatever.
Natalie: And she's dressed in a, in a Southern Belle outfit. I don't know what it's called because I'm not a historical costumer at a plantation and the whole world goes, yikes. Yeah. Yikes. Indeed. I also went yikes. And then I start paying attention. Because now this girl who made a choice in her early twenties, right or wrong is being labeled the racist contestant on the bachelor.
Natalie: Oh. And then I started paying attention to the way that they're editing the show. And I remember texting my friend. I was like, he's going to pick her. ABC is floundering right now. I go, she's it. She's the end of it. And now she's their biggest scandal. And they know that at the end of the day, he's getting down on one knee in front of her.
Natalie: So then Chris Harrison goes on, Rachel Lindsey's talk show. And she asks him about it. And he, it was really hard to watch because again, This isn't Chris Harrison helping his buddy, Matt out. This is Chris Harrison's job. So I'm sure he has things that he is allowed to say and things that he's not allowed to say.
Natalie: And he has the added pressure of she's the winner. So you can't mess with that. Right? We have to see him by her because she's winning our show. So I don't know the exact instance and I don't know the exact line of questioning, but I know that Rachel. Pushes back on one of Chris's answers
Julia: because she's been at this point, very outspoken about the racism and the issues that bachelor nation has had.
Julia: And she's not holding back anymore. At this point
Natalie: 100%. She's a hero. She is a hero because when I look at her Instagram posts and I click on comments, it is always a mistake because I am disgusted with the way that bachelor nation treats her. Yeah. Well, I'm not surprised because they want her to shut up and just be happy that she was on the show is basically every comment like, well, who are you like?
Natalie: It's, it's basically like, how dare you spit on the hand that fed you. Oh, um, so she pushes back on Chris and Chris just starts to spiral because he's like, well, And I understood the point that he was trying to make, because it's also kind of a point that I've tried to make with people where it's like, I would never want to be held accountable for anything that I did when I was 19 as a 33 year old.
Natalie: Who's grown. Yeah. That's a
Julia: slippery slope that our society is falling into because was there growth? Has this person grown from that? Have they, have they continued to behave in such ways that are kind of grotesque over the next 10, 15 years? Or has there been growth? Have they acknowledged that like, maybe that was a problem, but maybe because they were young and isolated, they didn't understand it was a problem or all the things, all the things.
Julia: You're a problem because you're not growing, but now you're, maybe you're 35 and you did something at 15 and you've grown. Right. But you've done the work as they like
Natalie: to say. I think. That the mistake that ABC did. And I understand why they made this choice, but they never let Rachel the woman whose Instagram photos leaked, they never let her make a statement until the show was over.
Natalie: Oh, they, I don't know if they put her in hiding in a bunker or whatever, but you never heard from her. And I
Julia: think Disney bunkers probably like fucking legit.
Natalie: So Chris was trying to make the point. We haven't heard from her yet. So I don't want to take a stance on this until she's allowed to take a stance on this because then I will have the whole story.
Natalie: Yeah. We don't want to wait
Julia: for the whole story guys. Nobody wants to wait. Twitter does not want to wait for the whole story. They want you to be angry right
Natalie: now. Right? He gets so flustered though, that it's almost like, instead of just saying, like, I haven't heard from her mouth yet, why she took those pictures or she hasn't been allowed to make a statement or whatever.
Natalie: So I'm going to cool my statement on it. He instead goes, well, we've all been young once. And sometimes we don't know the ramifications of things that we have done. And Rachel rightfully so. It's just like, I think people are well aware of why plantations are hurtful. I think people are well aware of what happened there and he just progressively got worse, more flustered
Julia: because he's not prepared.
Julia: He's not been media trained in how to handle this shit.
Natalie: But he should have been, I was like, ABC, you have enough money. And that's why my conspiracy theory is they were going to divert attention to Chris and let him take the fall and pay him out. Maybe he was already saying like, Hey, after my next couple of years under contract, I want to go or whatever.
Natalie: But my sinking suspicion is is they let them take the fall. They bought him out. And now he has a wedding rain line that pops up on my Instagram and he just gets to live in happy retirement because they wanted to divert attention away from the actual issue at hand. Yeah. Now around this time, Claire and Dale get back together.
Natalie: I am also convinced that that was part of the conspiracy. My friend's friend went to a bachelor party and Claire and Dale were there because like one of the grooms, like the gray, I think Dale was a groomsmen and my friend Carly's like Claire and Dale are back together. I go, of course they're back together because what else will divert attention from?
Natalie: This is you're too hot messes getting the fuck back to the other. Yeah. So as we know, Disney and ABC, they're tricky. and. I fully believe that they orchestrate your lives after the bachelor bachelorette to I
Julia: believe it, because of all the things that come from it, right? Like, I don't know who it is that hosts the tour.
Julia: But I think I told you when we were chatting on your podcast that our, um, we were performing arts center and every year the bachelor comes through and one of the local guys gets to be the person. And then they go through and pick local girls to be the contestant. And it's really interesting because here's why it's really interesting.
Julia: Every year I have a friend who's like, you shouldn't be a contestant on the local show. And
Natalie: I'm just like, no, no, I don't want to, I've
Julia: dated enough in this town. I understand what's out there. This show isn't going to help me.
Natalie: Well, and then you have to think about like all of the things that have, and behind the scenes of the bachelor bachelor at you have to take psych tests.
Natalie: I believe there's like a medical physical, and you have to take
Julia: a psych test and we're still getting what's happening
Natalie: on this show. Oh. Because I don't believe that those psych tests are there. I mean, it happened on unreal where they had a woman take a psych test and a lot of stuff showed up. And then they had the, all of the therapist's notes because they did the right thing and have a therapist on site.
Natalie: And then they use that woman's trauma to have her have a meltdown on that unreal show. And I was like, you know, that's what happens on the bachelor bachelorette.
Julia: Yeah. Cause the gal who created them real used to work on that on the bachelor. And so some of the stuff like the whole, when they. HOD when they interviewed the two lead gals from unreal, they, they had just finished the season where they had a black bachelor for the first time in history.
Julia: I don't think they call him a bachelor. I think they called them something else, but it doesn't matter. The point is, um, and they commented the actresses commented, you know, what's interesting is that after we did that season guests who announced it doing, having, uh, a black contestant on the show, and that was Rachel Lindsay was the contestant.
Julia: And I was like,
Natalie: yeah,
Julia: now you guys have now just convinced me that everything that happened in unreal is what actually happens in the, behind the scenes of the bachelor. And
Natalie: I have to imagine, because I think. Okay. So I watch a lot of married at first sight and you basically have to take like the relationship sat to be on married at first sight, because that's how they match you up.
Natalie: But I have to believe that if they're actually paying for like Sykes to be on-site and therapist and psycho analyst test and whatever, they're not doing that for your benefit. No, they're doing it to make a good story. Really great fucking TV.
Julia: Yeah. Yeah. And two, it's probably a nice CYA. If something does hit the fan.
Julia: Well, you can say, well, we had the support there, but who's to say, you know, when somebody is just driving the knife into your side, trying to get the best story out of you. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I still want to see a 40 and over
Natalie: version. I cannot wait to be a contestant on the 40 and over a bachelor and bla Hey, I'm like the young floozy.
Natalie: Right. It's honestly, love is blind and I'm married at first sight. And the ones where it's like more focused on a one-on-one relationship. It's not like we're dating 25 people. Yeah. They have become my preference because you actually get to see whether or not that relationship will work.
Julia: Yes. I was just telling my friend this, the other day said Levin was blind is such an interesting human expert.
Julia: And they're very careful about calling it a human experiment. Right. And I love it because when they do the big reveal, you know, before the big reveal, this is my soulmate, I love them so much. We're gonna have all these babies. It's going to be amazing, big reveal. And the body language is everything, everything you're like, he's going in for a hug and she's like backing up.
Julia: And you're like, where's your soulmate now, bitch. Like both of them not limited to just calling bitch women bitch, but the man too. Cause they're, you know, over time, sometimes the guy can be like, oh, all right. Um, but it's so it's just, I. I'm upset because human behavior is so fascinating to me that I think that love is blind feels more like a social cause they call it a social experiment.
Julia: Whereas the bachelor just feels like, you know, what was fun in high school when all of the girls were fighting over like the most popular guy let's do that. But for TV you can drink. I think
Natalie: that's why it's starting to run its course too. I don't know how you have like white privilege on TV in the year 20, 22.
Natalie: And still think that that's going to fly because it's just so opulent. It's like, where is all this money coming from? And it's just like, Everyone's in a prom dress. And like, people are tired of that because so many people are currently struggling me included. Then I'm like, I don't have any patients for this anymore.
Natalie: Yeah.
Julia: I get that. If I sat through like four episodes, like the first episode on the marathon of keeping up with the conduct Kardashians, I could sit through the second one, the third one. Okay. By the fourth one, I'm just like, you guys are so fucking filthy rich that like, I can't anymore, like pay off, help me with like, yes, I went to school and I took out loans to do it.
Julia: A number one school shouldn't be so expensive that I needed loans. And to like, I'm going to live the rest of my life. Like I'm always in this battle with my financial person about like, should I put this money towards my student loan or in retirement? And my stance is like, it doesn't matter what I do with my fucking retirement.
Julia: If I'm paying student loans while I'm living in an assisted living facility. Right. You know, it just gets to that point where it just like actual struggles are starting to take over my mind's place. And this is no longer enjoyable and enjoyable escape.
Natalie: Oh, wait. I think it was the last season that I watched where I was like, it's just starting to feel really Capitol, like district one in the hunger games.
Natalie: Like they're like Capitol and we're all just supposed to be watching them on TV because that's what we do. And it just, it feels icky. Yeah. It just feels icky,
Julia: which is why you're
Natalie: going, which is why. Yeah. I wasn't even interested. Like I turned it on and I was like, Nope, this is boring. And I turned it right back off married at first sight.
Natalie: Every time, a new season drops on Hulu. I'm like, oh, I should call off work for the next couple of days, because married at first, I also like the body chemistry, like the body language is everything. You walked down that aisle. And then all of a sudden someone's dragging their feet. And then there's always some really emotionally immature dude who talked a really good game about how he wanted to be married.
Natalie: And then he wakes up that next day and he's like, I think I'm married. And then he gives his partner, the silent treatment for the entire show. And she's just like left in the dust.
Julia: That's really sad. I was laying in bed last night and I was like, I should go on Twitter and see if anyone's tweet tweeted.
Julia: This probably already have, but hear me out. Love is blind celebrity edition.
Natalie: Yes.
Julia: Commingle it though. You have like half the male team of celebs and half the female team is celebs. And the other half of those teams are quote normal people.
Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you
Julia: think about it, it would make sense for celebrities because that's their hurdle, right.
Julia: Are you dating me because I'm a celebrity and I'm wealthy or are you dating me for me? Love is blind as your answer.
Natalie: What I quickly found out as I dated the person that I chose on my fake version of love, his line is anyone can say anything in a pod. Yeah. Um, and it's really hard to distinguish if someone's being genuine.
Natalie: If you're not actually looking at that, it's hard to tell. Yeah. I had an incident where I thought that this guy, um, said something because he had really like listened and connected and he was like, Really reading who I was as a person. And then I picked him and entered a two month toxic relationship with him.
Natalie: And I remember bringing that moment up and he was like, I was bullshitting you during that. Like I was joking
Julia: sometimes I wish my life was a button to, from Palm. And sometimes I wish my life was the first episode and the first episode only of the bachelorette, Natalie, thank you so much for joining me today.
Julia: Can you tell our friends at home where they can find you if they want to keep up with you?
Natalie: Sure. So my podcast is called to all the men I've tolerated before we release episodes. Every Thursday. Um, you can find me on Instagram at men. I've tolerated pod and Natalie K 1, 2 4. And that's where my link tree is to find me on tic-tac email me find the shows, episodes, catch me on fire side, where I do live streams every other Monday.
Natalie: So people can actually talk to me about the men they've tolerated before things like that.
Julia: Fun stuff. Thank you again for being on the show and friends. Thanks for tuning in until next time.
Natalie: Thank you so much for having me.
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